Correction of Quotes from Huxford by Spiral

[sirupate]

THE MYTH OF GURKHA RIFLEMAN CARRYING PRIVATE Spiral; 21st June 2010, 02:28 PM post 30 But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.} "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."

One has to wonder why you used this quote in reference to WW1?

1. There were actually three battalions in the 8th Gurkha Rifles in WW1 Jonathan
2. Full quote from Pg.316-317; “From old photographs it appears that kukris were invariably carried by Gurkha soldiers, but it was not until 1881 that these were officially authorised. In the Assam regiments the men had to pay for their kukris, though the leather frogs were ordinance supply.”

As good and as interesting as the book by Huxford is, he has clearly missed this;
“GENERAL ORDERS BY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF to Ochterlony Head-quarters, Futty Ghur, 27th July 1815.
A. The Nusseree and Sirmoor Battalions are to be armed with Musquets until a sufficient number of Fuzils (or Fusil; a muzzle loading musket) can be obtained. Each man to retain and wear his kookrey in a leather waistbelt of the pattern which has been approved.”

In other words kukri were made to an approved pattern and supplied to what were considered actual Gurkha units from the very beginning, which brings us onto Assam regiments!

The date of 1881 year quoted by Huxford is very important, as the Official description below shows; unless the regiment was truly Goorkha/Gurkha, kukri would not be issued, as was the case in the Assam Regiments, information you had to hand, but did not supply, why?

In 1880 an official description of the 42nd Assam LI, 43rd Assam LI and the 44th Sylhet LI says; “the first named has a strong Sikh element and the *43rd is mostly composed of Assamese, but both contain a good many men from Hindustan; the last named is now practically a Gurkha Corps.”
A. The 44th Sylhet only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the title being 44th Regiment, Goorkha (Light) Infantry, and becoming the 8th Gurkhas in 1903.
B. The 42nd (Assam) Regiment of Bengal (Light) Infantry only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the 42nd Regiment Goorkha Light Infantry, and becoming the 6th Gurkha Rifles in 1903.
C. The 43rd (Assam) Regiment of Bengal (Light) Infantry only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the 43rd Regiment Goorkha Light Infantry, and becoming the 7th Gurkhas in 1903, and eventually the 2/8th Gurkhas in 1907, so they could retain the Magar and Gurung make up, as under Lord Kitchener’s reforms the 7th was to be designated a Rai and Limbu regiment.

Spiral 'military' KUKRI for comment Spiral; 7th January 2012, 01:06 AM post 6 Despite Simons statement ,Some battalions still made or bought thier own kukri during ww2 due to supply difficulities during ww2 with the main pattern kukri.This is well documented.
Sirupate; 7th January 2012, 12:39 PM post 9 Proof of documentation please Jonathan.
Spiral 9th January 2012, 11:46 AM post 12 Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies, as life is to short to waste on such things ,but a request for documentry evidence I do view as legitamate on this occasion. A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy. The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952 ,

Quotes and information are only any good if the person quoting them gets them right!
Again you incorrect Jonathan; this is the actual written piece in the book by Huxford, and confirms what I thought, that the REGIMENT dealt with kukri, although not quite the way I thought with the 8th.
“As Government kukri were unobtainable, the Centre (Regimental Centre at Quetta) developed its own kukri industry. A large number of kukri manufacturers and other skilled artisans were imported, and within a few months it was possible to equip all drafts with weapons of the finest design and make. Considering that only available material was scrap, such as springs from derelict motor cars and odds and ends of old metal parts, and that the workshops were covered huts with no facilities for manufacturer, these craftsmen put up a fine effort which astonished visitors.”

In future Jonathan please get your quotes correct, and supply the full information so that people have the full story, and are not misleading.

[Rick]

I expect this thread to remain civil and without personal attack Gents .

Rick

[sirupate]

I fully intend to Rick, I hope you enjoyed the info, cheers Simon

[Berkley]

Each man to retain and wear his kookrey in a leather waistbelt of the pattern which has been approved.

A standard rule of English construction (a subject well known and understood in 1815 - perhaps more so than is the case today) is that an adjectavial clause ("of the pattern which has been approved") always follows the person, place or thing it describes ("a leather waistbelt"), usually immediately.

In other words kukri were made to an approved pattern

Misreading an accurately quoted primary source, through lack of understanding of basic principles of grammar, can cause one to draw erroneous conclusions. Uniforms (including waistbelts) of the 1st Nasiri ( AKA Nusseree) Battalion were indeed of a prescribed pattern: LINK. Unless there is evidence of a similar approved pattern for the kukris, I believe you have misread the quoted passage, and drawn an erroneous conclusion as a result.

[sirupate]

No Berkley I haven't, this particular section was dealing with equipment supplied and must be read in that context, as Uniform is dealt with in another couple of paragraph's.

Also below;
GENERAL ORDERS BY THE HONOURABLE THE GOVERNOR IN COUNCIL Fort William, 2nd May 1823.
these corps (The Nasiri & Sirmoor) are clothed, armed, equipt and supplied with Ammunition at the expense of the State....etc.

I would also like to point out that Berkley is a moderator on International Kukri Research and Historical Society (IKRHS), where Spiral was made Senior Researcher, so there may be bias in the way he answers, it is interesting to note, that he questioned myself, but not what or why Spiral quoted the way he did?

[sirupate]

It is interesting Berkley that the picture the link takes you to quotes it as being of in the 1820's, infact the picture of the Sabathu Battalion of a Subedar and Sepoys is dated 11th October 1834.

[spiral]

Ahh another "strange" & missleading thread designed to attack me by sirupate .....


Quote:spiral
THE MYTH OF GURKHA RIFLEMAN CARRYING PRIVATE Spiral; 21st June 2010, 02:28 PM post 30 But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.} "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply."

Originally Posted by sirupate

One has to wonder why you used this quote in reference to WW1?

The thread {In context.} was one where Simon failed to proove that pre.1945 Gurkhas never carried a private purchase kukri, {whatever its source.. Village made, a kukri factors in a Garrison town or family hierloom.} My quote from. Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply." is tottaly accurate. the comment in quotes seemed relevant as that is part of thier history. I could have just as easily mentioned thier gallentry in ww2 or any other period.

Originally Posted by sirupate

1. There were actually three battalions in the 8th Gurkha Rifles in WW1 Jonathan
2. Full quote from Pg.316-317; “From old photographs it appears that kukris were invariably carried by Gurkha soldiers, but it was not until 1881 that these were officially authorised. In the Assam regiments the men had to pay for their kukris, though the leather frogs were ordinance supply.”
As good and as interesting as the book by Huxford is, he has clearly missed this;
“GENERAL ORDERS BY THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF to Ochterlony Head-quarters, Futty Ghur, 27th July 1815.
A. The Nusseree and Sirmoor Battalions are to be armed with Musquets until a sufficient number of Fuzils (or Fusil; a muzzle loading musket) can be obtained. Each man to retain and wear his kookrey in a leather waistbelt of the pattern which has been approved.”

In other words kukri were made to an approved pattern and supplied to what were considered actual Gurkha units from the very beginning, which brings us onto Assam regiments!

Appart from Hengles failure to understand plain English. {Despite his claims to having attended a British Public School.} Illustrated by Berkley, Hengle made other errors or missreprsentations as well.

Such as the Document you quote to Ochterlony HQ, which deals with the Nusseree & Sirmoor battalions, neither of whom where regarded as Assam based Regiments, That Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords documentation was about!

Originally Posted by sirupate

The date of 1881 year quoted by Huxford is very important, as the Official description below shows; unless the regiment was truly Goorkha/Gurkha, kukri would not be issued, as was the case in the Assam Regiments, information you had to hand, but did not supply, why?

In 1880 an official description of the 42nd Assam LI, 43rd Assam LI and the 44th Sylhet LI says; “the first named has a strong Sikh element and the *43rd is mostly composed of Assamese, but both contain a good many men from Hindustan; the last named is now practically a Gurkha Corps.”
A. The 44th Sylhet only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the title being 44th Regiment, Goorkha (Light) Infantry, and becoming the 8th Gurkhas in 1903.
B. The 42nd (Assam) Regiment of Bengal (Light) Infantry only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the 42nd Regiment Goorkha Light Infantry, and becoming the 6th Gurkha Rifles in 1903.
C. The 43rd (Assam) Regiment of Bengal (Light) Infantry only became a Goorkha Regiment in 1886, the 43rd Regiment Goorkha Light Infantry, and becoming the 7th Gurkhas in 1903, and eventually the 2/8th Gurkhas in 1907, so they could retain the Magar and Gurung make up, as under Lord Kitchener’s reforms the 7th was to be designated a Rai and Limbu regiment.
.

we then come to your latest misleading & false critiscim of myself.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Spiral 9th January 2012, 11:46 AM post 12 Generaly I ignore Simon Hengle of Tora Replica kukri supplies, as life is to short to waste on such things ,but a request for documentry evidence I do view as legitamate on this occasion. A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy. The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles. By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford. Published in 1952 ,
.

Hengle has then very carefully edited my full quote to make my statement appear missleading! As if I only Mentiond Huxford as the source not himself.

This is a deliberate & foul act that shows your approach to myself & anyone else he feels rejected by. He removed the part of the quote refering to him as a source for the information.

My actual reply was....

Originally Posted by spiral

"A legitamate request... quite a reliable source realy.

The Official Regimental history of the 8th Gurkha Rifles.

By Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford.

Published in 1952 ,


Or a more amusing source.

From...linky {Bottom of second page.}


Jonathan Sedwell AKA spiral

.

In other words I refered to Huxfords book to illustrate kukri manufacture by the regiments & I refer to Hengle as the source of outside manufacturing!

Originally Posted by sirupate

Quotes and information are only any good if the person quoting them gets them right!
Again you incorrect Jonathan; this is the actual written piece in the book by Huxford, and confirms what I thought, that the REGIMENT dealt with kukri, although not quite the way I thought with the 8th.
“As Government kukri were unobtainable, the Centre (Regimental Centre at Quetta) developed its own kukri industry. A large number of kukri manufacturers and other skilled artisans were imported, and within a few months it was possible to equip all drafts with weapons of the finest design and make. Considering that only available material was scrap, such as springs from derelict motor cars and odds and ends of old metal parts, and that the workshops were covered huts with no facilities for manufacturer, these craftsmen put up a fine effort which astonished visitors.”

In future Jonathan please get your quotes correct, and supply the full information so that people have the full story, and are not misleading. .

I would like to state to all, My statements & quotes were fully correct & not misleading. This can all be veryfied on the original threads, if anyone moderators or forumites is bothered enough to. {links to threads at bottom of page}


It is an old technique of Hengle is to start a new thread & just pick the bits he wants to quote, missing out the parts that he cant manipulate his way round so easilly. It works with some people but somehow I hope the average IQ & understanding of people on this forum is considerably higher than that.


Another old technique of Toras simon Hengle is to pass insults & allegations against people as an edit so the original person doesnt always see it, but later readers do. {Sometimes historicaly he then edits it back out afyer he thinks its had enough veiwers.}

His unprovoked even paranoid attack on Berkley is typicle of this behavour.

Originally Posted by sirupate

.
I would also like to point out that Berkley is a moderator on International Kukri Research and Historical Society (IKRHS), where Spiral was made Senior Researcher, so there may be bias in the way he answers, it is interesting to note, that he questioned myself, but not what or why Spiral quoted the way he did?

So in short, Simon is a very missleading & manipulitve in his posts. In fact the very crimes he accuses me of!

O well, Ive waisted another hour of my life dealing once more with Hengles malcious behavour.

But of course that what trolls feed on.


Spiral AKA Jonathan Sedwell.




The various threads.

The Myth thread..http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=myth

Simon talking to himself about the myth thread.... ...[URL=http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12122&highlight=myth[/URL]

The innocous questian generating Simons current post. ...[URL=http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12122&highlight=myth[/URL]

[David]

Well, i'm shutting down this thread until one of the other mods for this forum can sort out this childish behavior. Really gents...we can do better than this...

[Andrew]

Ridiculous. Take this somewhere else, gentlemen. You all have private email with which you can level attacks and criticism (deserved or otherwise) at each other without disrupting this forum.

10 day vacations for anyone participating in this type of thread.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff