Bhutan knife swap/sale

Tim Simmons · 6th November 2008, 01:03 PM

Swap for Africa? or other. Might sell. Horn finish to scabbard. old damage to handle. Nice blade. 4mm back to blade sharp with flex unlike many others that heavy with functuality.

fernando · 6th November 2008, 03:41 PM

PM sent.
Fernando

Tim Simmons · 6th November 2008, 09:03 PM

Sikkim which does make a small differnce.

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ers/1907.47.4/

Tim Simmons · 7th November 2008, 07:31 PM

I think this may have found a new home.

Philip · 8th November 2008, 11:13 PM

The impression which I've gleaned over the years of examining and discussing is that this type of knife is from the frontier region of lowland southern Bhutan and the northern Assam, in the watershed of the Brahmaputra River. The design of the metal ferrule reinforcing the wasp-waisted grip at the root of the blade is similar to that on the more familiar Bhutanese swords from the Tibetan-influenced highland regions of the country. The open-fronted scabbard concept is something seen in many parts of SE Asia, such as on the Kachin dao, the swords of the Taiwan highlanders, and on various "bolos" and knives of the central and northern Philippines.

dennee · 9th November 2008, 12:42 AM

That these shortswords or jungle knives belong to the "Lepchas" (aka Lapche--from Nepalese--Rongpas, meaning valley people, or, as they call themselves, Mutanchi Rong Kup Rum Kup) there can be no doubt. There are plenty of photos of Lepchas carrying this weapon/tool, commonly known as ban or payak/pa-yuk, which may have been a longer sword form. The ban was pictured in Claude White's Sikhim and Bhutan and discussed there and in nearly every older article on Sikkim or the Lepchas.

Lepcha migration into Sikkim is remote enough that they have no tradition of migration. They are said to have come from Burma and Assam in the 13th century, but others think they may have come from Tibet and Nepal. They are found from the Elam district of eastern Nepal (part of Sikkim until 1815) to the Chumbi Valley (Tromo) of Tibet, putting them on the western doorstep of Bhutan.

The Lepchas' origins and their continuing to inhabit the humid, jungle valleys of Sikkim explain the open scabbard and the heaviness of the hacking blades.

While the shape of the blades differ, the ban has some similarities to the working knives and shortswords of Bhutan, the barchem and nalong (the former of which has a chisel shaped end, the latter a rougher and shorter version of the patang). They have some similarity in material and shape of hilt and scabbard, although the Bhutanese scabbards are closed; the Lepcha scabbards are essentially one half of the Bhutanese closed scabbard. They also share the characteristic of a heavy spine for hacking. (Diffusion and adaptation or parallel development?)

There don't seem to be any ban around of great age. In 1909, Claude White noted that the quality of Lepcha knives was good, but regretted that they had ceased forging them from "indigeneous charcoal iron," but manufacture had long since switched to using steel bar stock that was presumably imported and thus probably "monosteel" as opposed to Tibetan-style laminated (much as Bhutanese working knives are now commonly made from Japanese car springs imported from India).

fernando · 9th November 2008, 11:43 PM

Much obliged for your input, Philip.
So kind of you to come around

.

Hi Dennee, thanks a lot for the great info and great pictures ... which i will obviously keep.
Let me ask you a couple questions, if i may ?
Payak/Pa-yuk ... what is the difference ? Is the first the sound in english and the second the original spelling?
There don't seem to be any ban around of great age ... meaning what ? are there no 19th century examples ? Could you estimate the age of this one under discussion ?
Thanks a lot in antecipation
Fernando

dennee · 10th November 2008, 01:25 AM

Payak and pa-yuk are simply the different spellings I have seen.

No, I can't estimate the age. The humid conditions of the Lepcha areas and the hard work to which these weapons were put would take their toll. The weapons that have survived may be better in quality, at least of decoration---with silver or nickel-silver wire on the grip, and silver or brass 'buttons' pinned to the hilt and sometimes coral and/or turquoise on the scabbard, the most decorated with a silver plate at the end of the scabbard, decorated with these stones---and owned by persons who did not engage in everyday work with such knives. Those in the photographs have such decoration; their owners are presumably farily important personages. The Pitt-Rivers Museum example to which Tim linked was owned by a reincarnated religious leader.

There are surely some nineteenth-century examples, but which, and how early in the century? The British would not be around Sikkim much until during the Anglo-Nepalaese War, and then more so from the mid 19th century. The example shown by Egerton of Tatton was presumably collected during the forty-year period after 1855. It may then be one of the oldest examples in a western collection (where is it? British Museum, V & A, or was it in his personal collection?). Does its blade show differences from later examples? No one will know until one finds it and compares. The Pitt-Rivers example was donated in 1907 but may have been collected years earlier and produced years earlier than that. The photos above mostly date to just after 1900. My own examples could be a century old, but they show little patina on the side of the blade that faces into the sheath. There are also fairly young examples; one that was discussed on this forum within the last year or so had a demon's head pommel and a general newer appearance in the metal fittings that possibly indicated its creation as more of a souvenir, suggesting possible World War II or later date.

About the present example, all I can say is that I have seen one similar example in the U.S., although yours is seems unusual in having the horn at the lower end of the scabbard. The other example to which I refer passed between a few owners within the last few years and had the same fluting as yours (all examples seem to be somewhat concave in profile, however). The other commonality is that they are both otherwise plain, lacking decoration (except for the horn in this case). Perhaps they are pure working knives? Perhaps they are of a later date than some others? I say this only because the other example I saw did not have as much patina on the wood as most ban I have seen.

fernando · 10th November 2008, 10:05 PM

Hi Dennee,
Once more thanks a lot for your so well documented coments.
Concerning decoration, i can't wait to receive this ban and check it thoroughly ... within my limited knowledge, of course.
There is a mark on the scabbard that could well be the 'scar' of some decoration detail that has once been there, and which might have been removed or simply fallen off; the place where this is found is a sugestive one, as being the place where decoration buttons are applied, as i can see.
Naturally it could also be the mark of some 'stitch' to the wood, to avoid its braking apart ... or just my imagination

.
Fernando

.

dennee · 11th November 2008, 03:02 AM

The most common places of attachment for the typical metal rosettes or "lotus flowers" seem to be the guard and the pommel, although they were frequently attached to the lower end of the scabbard just below the point of the blade. This was alternatively the place for a stone, although turquoise and, to a lesser extent, coral (and their faux equivalents) were usually attached a bit lower, usually set into a decorated silver plate or some other metal. I can't tell what it is from the the photo---possibly a repair or even a staple to hold together the split.

6th November 2008, 01:03 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Bhutan knife swap/sale Swap for Africa? or other. Might sell. Horn finish to scabbard. old damage to handle. Nice blade. 4mm back to blade sharp with flex unlike many others that heavy with functuality. Attached Images

9th November 2008, 12:42 AM	#6
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	That these shortswords or jungle knives belong to the "Lepchas" (aka Lapche--from Nepalese--Rongpas, meaning valley people, or, as they call themselves, Mutanchi Rong Kup Rum Kup) there can be no doubt. There are plenty of photos of Lepchas carrying this weapon/tool, commonly known as ban or payak/pa-yuk, which may have been a longer sword form. The ban was pictured in Claude White's Sikhim and Bhutan and discussed there and in nearly every older article on Sikkim or the Lepchas. Lepcha migration into Sikkim is remote enough that they have no tradition of migration. They are said to have come from Burma and Assam in the 13th century, but others think they may have come from Tibet and Nepal. They are found from the Elam district of eastern Nepal (part of Sikkim until 1815) to the Chumbi Valley (Tromo) of Tibet, putting them on the western doorstep of Bhutan. The Lepchas' origins and their continuing to inhabit the humid, jungle valleys of Sikkim explain the open scabbard and the heaviness of the hacking blades. While the shape of the blades differ, the ban has some similarities to the working knives and shortswords of Bhutan, the barchem and nalong (the former of which has a chisel shaped end, the latter a rougher and shorter version of the patang). They have some similarity in material and shape of hilt and scabbard, although the Bhutanese scabbards are closed; the Lepcha scabbards are essentially one half of the Bhutanese closed scabbard. They also share the characteristic of a heavy spine for hacking. (Diffusion and adaptation or parallel development?) There don't seem to be any ban around of great age. In 1909, Claude White noted that the quality of Lepcha knives was good, but regretted that they had ceased forging them from "indigeneous charcoal iron," but manufacture had long since switched to using steel bar stock that was presumably imported and thus probably "monosteel" as opposed to Tibetan-style laminated (much as Bhutanese working knives are now commonly made from Japanese car springs imported from India). Attached Images

10th November 2008, 01:25 AM	#8
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Payak and pa-yuk are simply the different spellings I have seen. No, I can't estimate the age. The humid conditions of the Lepcha areas and the hard work to which these weapons were put would take their toll. The weapons that have survived may be better in quality, at least of decoration---with silver or nickel-silver wire on the grip, and silver or brass 'buttons' pinned to the hilt and sometimes coral and/or turquoise on the scabbard, the most decorated with a silver plate at the end of the scabbard, decorated with these stones---and owned by persons who did not engage in everyday work with such knives. Those in the photographs have such decoration; their owners are presumably farily important personages. The Pitt-Rivers Museum example to which Tim linked was owned by a reincarnated religious leader. There are surely some nineteenth-century examples, but which, and how early in the century? The British would not be around Sikkim much until during the Anglo-Nepalaese War, and then more so from the mid 19th century. The example shown by Egerton of Tatton was presumably collected during the forty-year period after 1855. It may then be one of the oldest examples in a western collection (where is it? British Museum, V & A, or was it in his personal collection?). Does its blade show differences from later examples? No one will know until one finds it and compares. The Pitt-Rivers example was donated in 1907 but may have been collected years earlier and produced years earlier than that. The photos above mostly date to just after 1900. My own examples could be a century old, but they show little patina on the side of the blade that faces into the sheath. There are also fairly young examples; one that was discussed on this forum within the last year or so had a demon's head pommel and a general newer appearance in the metal fittings that possibly indicated its creation as more of a souvenir, suggesting possible World War II or later date. About the present example, all I can say is that I have seen one similar example in the U.S., although yours is seems unusual in having the horn at the lower end of the scabbard. The other example to which I refer passed between a few owners within the last few years and had the same fluting as yours (all examples seem to be somewhat concave in profile, however). The other commonality is that they are both otherwise plain, lacking decoration (except for the horn in this case). Perhaps they are pure working knives? Perhaps they are of a later date than some others? I say this only because the other example I saw did not have as much patina on the wood as most ban I have seen. Last edited by dennee; 10th November 2008 at 01:37 AM.

10th November 2008, 10:05 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Dennee, Once more thanks a lot for your so well documented coments. Concerning decoration, i can't wait to receive this ban and check it thoroughly ... within my limited knowledge, of course. There is a mark on the scabbard that could well be the 'scar' of some decoration detail that has once been there, and which might have been removed or simply fallen off; the place where this is found is a sugestive one, as being the place where decoration buttons are applied, as i can see. Naturally it could also be the mark of some 'stitch' to the wood, to avoid its braking apart ... or just my imagination . Fernando . Attached Images

6th November 2008, 03:41 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PM sent. Fernando

6th November 2008, 09:03 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sikkim which does make a small differnce. http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ers/1907.47.4/

7th November 2008, 07:31 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think this may have found a new home.

8th November 2008, 11:13 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The impression which I've gleaned over the years of examining and discussing is that this type of knife is from the frontier region of lowland southern Bhutan and the northern Assam, in the watershed of the Brahmaputra River. The design of the metal ferrule reinforcing the wasp-waisted grip at the root of the blade is similar to that on the more familiar Bhutanese swords from the Tibetan-influenced highland regions of the country. The open-fronted scabbard concept is something seen in many parts of SE Asia, such as on the Kachin dao, the swords of the Taiwan highlanders, and on various "bolos" and knives of the central and northern Philippines.

9th November 2008, 11:43 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Much obliged for your input, Philip. So kind of you to come around . Hi Dennee, thanks a lot for the great info and great pictures ... which i will obviously keep. Let me ask you a couple questions, if i may ? Payak/Pa-yuk ... what is the difference ? Is the first the sound in english and the second the original spelling? There don't seem to be any ban around of great age ... meaning what ? are there no 19th century examples ? Could you estimate the age of this one under discussion ? Thanks a lot in antecipation Fernando

11th November 2008, 03:02 AM	#10
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The most common places of attachment for the typical metal rosettes or "lotus flowers" seem to be the guard and the pommel, although they were frequently attached to the lower end of the scabbard just below the point of the blade. This was alternatively the place for a stone, although turquoise and, to a lesser extent, coral (and their faux equivalents) were usually attached a bit lower, usually set into a decorated silver plate or some other metal. I can't tell what it is from the the photo---possibly a repair or even a staple to hold together the split.