Types of Damascus Pattern

[RDGAC]

OK folks, to assuage my curiosity (and to placate Vandoo, whom I can feel poking me with a metaphorical stick in the cause of getting the forum livelier ), I have a question, simply expressed but delivered with contrition. I'm sure this information is elsewhere, but I've not yet found it despite much searching.

What are the different patterns found on items of Damascus steel?

I know of names, and I have read descriptions; I can describe certain patterns (my jezail barrel's "wibbly wobbly swirly things" for instance!), but nonetheless, I have never seen, say, a series of pictures, accompanied by the words: "That is sham-pattern Damascus." So, ladies and gentlemen, if you'd oblige a hopelessly ignorant young fella (and perhaps help those who shall follow us all), I should be... er... obliged.

[ALEX]

assuming you're asking about wootz, and not Damascus steel in general...would like to give you a quick wootz collectors advice:-)
there are 2 types of wootz: good wootz (high contrast, bold and active pattern), and bad wootz (low contrast with weak activity and/or losses of pattern). on the picture: second from the top is sham (low contrast) and third is v. good wootz with mechanically added ladder pattern:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9.fig.2.lg.gif
Granted, there are many other variations and even more opinions. L. Figiel "On Damascus Steel" and Sachse's "Damascus Steel" books cover the topic well, but for wootz the first book is better, get it.... and don't forget to search the forum for various wootz patterns:-) Good luck!

[ariel]

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by ariel

An addition: "good" wootz ( high contrast) and "bad" wootz ( low contrast) are considered such only in esthetic terms. Mechanically, they may be soft, brittle, and otherwise defective in technical terms, irrespective of their superficial luster. Wootz is a classic example of beauty being skin-deep. Not for nothing european monosteel blades were prized by the natives in India for their fighting qualities, whereas wootz blades were brought to Europe to be worn on parades and exhibited in the museums. Ironic, isn't it?

That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

On topic: Should we make this with picture examples? Sometimes I have a hard time knowing the difference between Sham (Does this mean "fake" or sham as in the place, the levante?) and low contrast wootz so any pictures and some info would be nice !

Excellent idea :-)

[Gt Obach]

Wootz was one of the finest steels of its time ! both beauty and strength
-it does its job well
- so it is reflected in the high prices for these blades




[QUOTE=A.alnakkas]That very much sums up my opinion on wootz. Arabs have valued european blades (especially clauberg) and even put them as superior to some wootz varieties. Though Indian wootz is considered the best for some reason, I heard that the saudi executioner uses indian wootz (Jawhar) blades, but that could be rubbish as I heard it from a random person :-)

yes, Rubbish indeed !... what qualifies that person as an expert in steel.. Nothing !!!


to the Op, what type of damascus steel are we talking about... either patternwelded, or crucible steel ? both a fundamentally different

[RDGAC]

Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder!

- Meredydd

[ariel]

Well, none of us is a true wootz expert, because there is not a single man alive on this planet who could reliably produce long wootz blades comparable in their esthetic appeal to the examples from Figiel's book.

I think Mr. Obach's tirade about qualifications as an expert was related to the Saudi executioner. Well, he actually used his wootz blade for it's intended reason. That makes him an expert par excellence:-)

[Gt Obach]

tirade: a protracted speech usually marked by intemperate, vituperative, or harshly censorious language

so i disagree with you.. as i'm sure you run into alot of that

i don't feel your expert is qualified for much of anything... unless a Saudi execution envolves combat ? perhaps he is a direct descendant from a soldier and can commune with his ancient relative .... perhaps

where is my crystal ball

[Gt Obach]

Hi RD

its actually simple...

1) Wootz damascus is a crucible steel... some ingredients are melted in a clay crucible till liquid then cooled slowly in the vessel. The goal is to produce a ultra high carbon, dendritic steel. The ingot is then forged out into a blade using a low forge temp inorder to grow the carbide pattern. The blade is then etched and you see the waterings

2) Forgewelded damascus- several pieces of bloom steel are stacked up in a billet... (resembling a sandwich) the billet is then fluxed and forgewelded together and drawn out .... cut... restacked and repeat
- pattern is then manipulated and designs are made
- eg...like those Viking sword with twistcore

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Any and all. I address this to everyone, actually: in essence, I'm very, very confused about Damascus and wootz, the relationships between the two, and how one tells the various varieties apart. My ignorance is doubtless, which is annoying since I've a watered barrel of some sort propped up in a tube behind my right shoulder!

- Meredydd

[ariel]

We have already spent inordinate amount of time arguing about relative mechanical value of wootz vs. european monosteel. Whereas the latter examples coming from high quality places were uniformly good, wootz had inordinate variaility and was often pretty substandard mechanically: witness rubbed off pattern on some Figiel's blades simply as a result of contact with softwood scabbard inserts. Not for nothing did Al Kindi and some Indian authors spend so much effort explaining the features of good and bad blades. They knew that there was a big skeleton in the closet.
How would wootz compare to good european monosteels? Who knows? It had never been tested edge to edge, nobody is willing to sacrifice his Assadulla to be cut for analysis, and nobody would be willing to subject his Kalbali to rigorous european-style testing ( slamming the blade against massive woodblock, dropping the blade point first on a sheet of iron or bending it repeatedly ). In limited tests ( Zschokke), wootz blades had incredible variability in terms of chemistry and pretty low hardness. There were good wootz blades and very bad wootz blades. Thus, the mere fact of wootz-iness gave no guarantee that the blade would perform well. As to their skin-deep beauty, - here I agree 100%: wootz is pretty. I suspect that even that is an exaggeration: mostly the prettiest blades, never tested in battle, survived. The multitude of cheaper ones just perished like anything else that was made by lesser masters for mass production.

Why do contemporary masters still are trying to uncover the "secret of wootz"? The Everest syndrome: because it is there. Just to prove that they can reproduce the pretty pattern. More power to them. But is there any practical reason? Likely not. Modern alloys will beat wootz 100:0 any time.

[Gt Obach]

good morning

your making very large assumptions about wootz being poor, and you know what happens when you assume

actually, when wootz is processed well....and you put the carbide where you want it to be... wootz can be an excellent sword steel
( carbide being the white lines in wootz... which are actually little globes in clusters when done properly.... )

-there is a good deal of testing done on the material... i have put both my wootz steel and ancient wootz steel through the paces for a 1hour documentary...
Ric F has done lots of testing on wootz, and has published it on the net and youtube

I've cut tatami mats, pillows, silk scarves, wood dowels, 12 to 15inch cubes of meat ( size of a torso, or thigh )

here is the revelation !!!!
-- of all the things i've cut, the meat offered little .... very little resistance... a pumpkin was more difficult to cut... and that was effortless
-- People have to change their perception that the body is tough and will offer some safety .... it will not
tatami is suppose to be a good material for testing and comparing - it was so easily parted to pieces with a shamshir that we decided to show off... and slice the large roll several times into pieces before the first piece had touched the ground

a sharp shamshir/tulwar will indeed, leave you in pieces

now that is established

the etch on wootz is merely a surface oxide.. it can be smeared or removed through use... it can be renewed at any time through re-etching ... it has no bearing what so ever on the function of the sword

India being a British colony was no doubt encouraged to adopt English steel... otherwise why would they drop hundreds of years of tradition... they did produce their own regular bloom steel... so they did have the option prior to the English visit, to use either wootz or bloom steel

the English did have military standards .... and that does help to control product variability ... so you know what your getting ...

do you not think that Assadallah was a form of standardization.. i do ! ... look at curvature of blade, distal taper, etc ... there are many hints of standards

wootz does work as well as modern plain carbon steels.. i can't tell the difference between wootz and 1050,1060,1075,1080, 1095 carbon steels etc... but we do have alloys such as L6 and s7 that offer very high toughness... ( but where does that toughness come into play ???? )

how does flesh rate on the Rockwell scale of hardness... Swords are meant to cut flesh ...period ! I think you'll find a few rockwell points up or down offers you no comfort

none of this is a surprise .... wootz steel has proved itself through history and wars... no bias from modern books or collectors will change that

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

Mr.Obach, I agree with you that persian produced wootz blades are very much standardized, but the majority of them were trade blades.

I have nothing to comment on the durability of wootz as I have zero knowledge of it, but I think mr.Obach is wrong to say that wootz was only made against flesh as metal armor was well into use in the 19th century?

Against flesh, we know that it works well but so does other sharp things (bronze, iron etc even wood and stone) so I dont think mentioning something about sharpness contributes to durability.

Regarding my comment about arabs considering Clauberg superior to persian wootz; I found an old topic by S.AlAnizi (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=riyadh) Where AlSufayan (blacksmith that specialize in refitting swords/daggers) said that Persian wootz is inferior to Indian and Clauberg. I dont have any theory regarding this, but its all about the blacksmith and for whom the item is being made for :-)

[Gt Obach]

have you tried to cut armor ? try it
you will be surprised, it does its job very well
- the only way to really know is to test it... don't read about it... go and test it to see for your own eyes

I've made chainmail sections and tried to cut it with a blade... the rings on the chain mail were not even welded or riveted and it easily stood up
- place the chain mail on a wood log and tried to cut it with a hatchet ...and i could not... ...it drove the chainmail into the wood of the log and finally, 2 links cut after many chops... now, that is not at all like us... we are soft and not hard like a wood log..... so now imagine this chainmail on something soft bodied and how difficult it would be to cut

also, i've seen several pieces of armor that were wootz... so those plates are steel... much more durable that normal iron

to pierce armor, you will have to concentrate the force on a point... not distribute it over a large area

besides, i think the popularity of armor on the battle field is low...it must have been extraordinarily expensive ...


i will say, wootz is costly and difficult to make... if your equipping an army, it will not be cheap ..... would you say an English saber is better than a Katana ..... No... but it would be easier to equip an army with sabers
- there is your answer

now to debate something of more substance...

Curved swords or Straight swords ......
1796 lc sabre or straight blade French sabre

perhaps another exercise in futility... hooray

[ariel]

The "wootz vs. european monosteel" argument is indeed exercise in futility from the contemporary practical point of view. The only relevant point is the still-promulgated insistence of some wootz enthusiasts that wootz as such is a kind of a wonder metal. It is not. Wootz is a heterogenous definition of an alloy used to manufacture blades of widely different compositions and forging. As a result, the final outcomes were also different. Some were excellent by their contemporary criteria, some were simply good, some were substandard. Against it, european monosteel was relatively uniform thanks to the Western insistence on scientific approach and quality control. That's it.
Do I like wootz blades? Of course. Do I wish to have more of them in my collection? Sure. Would I, with my current understanding of their quality, choose a random wootz sword or a random Solingen blade if my life depended on it? Let me think :-)

[Gt Obach]

the world changes...

its more than just the " standardization" factor ! Wootz is not something that i could ever see being efficiently produced compared to modern standards.. its a small batch steel by nature ! It is a very clean steel with low alloy content, except for carbon being high .

- to forge it, you must use low forge temp heats therefore it almost alway has a very small grain size ( small grain size help immensely with toughness, while a large grain will be much more brittle )

forgewelding is at very high heat... if you do not take the effort to normalize the steel after... you will have a very large grained steel ... this is a potential pitfall of bloom steel !


also, i do not believe that even the smalltime wootz sword makers would not have some tests to proof a blade before it leaves the shop.. just about any bladesmith i know takes their blade to a piece of hard wood and chops away to test the edge and blade for impact strength

there'll alway be the scammers and peddlers of poor goods, and rigid standards would eliminate that forsure

still, you have to compare wootz to small production bloom steel ... in this respect it is good ( and in my opinion, i'd say better )

ofcourse Walloon, Puddling ... and so on, start down the road to industrialization and mass production ( a whole different barrel of apples )
- a game changer

talk is cheap
take your cheepest wootz sabre and sharpen it as it should be.. hang a 15inch cube of meat from a tree and slice it diagonally

I'll choose wootz

but, i'd never choose either sword for combat, I'll make the implements for war, but i'd never partake ..... remember the fate of that 15 inch cube of meat, remember how effortless it was to cleave in into two massive pieces..... that is a fate i won't ever risk

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Lew, you are right, the blade is pattern welded.

The attached picture shows – to the left pattern welded and to the right wootz.

Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

Hi RD

its actually simple...

1) Wootz damascus is a crucible steel... some ingredients are melted in a clay crucible till liquid then cooled slowly in the vessel. The goal is to produce a ultra high carbon, dendritic steel. The ingot is then forged out into a blade using a low forge temp inorder to grow the carbide pattern. The blade is then etched and you see the waterings

2) Forgewelded damascus- several pieces of bloom steel are stacked up in a billet... (resembling a sandwich) the billet is then fluxed and forgewelded together and drawn out .... cut... restacked and repeat
- pattern is then manipulated and designs are made
- eg...like those Viking sword with twistcore

Salaams GT Obach.
I was scratching about trying to define the difference beteen the two techniques so thank you for setting it down so simply...and the correct small d in damascus denoting technique not place.. Excellent ! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry my former post seem to have been placed wrongly.
Jens

[Richard Furrer]

I make wootz, I make bloomery steel, I make European crucible steel (Huntsman), I make blister and shear steel (I'll be doing studies into Chinese cast iron decarburization next year)....I have conducted and had done at labs actual scientific testing on this material I make as well as the old blades I have. Some of this is posted on my website and some is not.
Simply because such information has not been released to the public does not mean that smiths are not conduction them. Frankly, I see little benefit to casting the results to the wind...folk who like old blades rarely buy new blades and folk who buy new blades have an interest in old blades...to a point.
As to "better" it matters little as those battle have been fought and won/lost before. I still get paper cuts and all my blades can cut paper, I get wood splinters and all by blades can shave wood...humans are soft and squishy..how "good" does an edge need to be to injure us? How good does a helmet need to be to keep the one under the bucket from getting cut?

As to hardness...it depends on the heat treatment of the blade and its carbon levels..nothing else. Without a doubt the as quenched hardness of a blade is dependent upon carbon level only.
I have hardness levels on old wootz that runs the gambit from 20 rockwell C to 58 RC..and the same for European and Japanese blades of the same time frames....hardness it seems is as variable as the style of blade and its culture.
If I were to make a general statement it would be that
"generally, hand made blades made from batch process steel (including European) was highly variable and that each needs to be individually evaluated." It would be nice to say otherwise as it would make evaluation simple, but life simply is not simple.

I straightened a 15th cent wootz blade a few years ago for a collector and it skated a file on the edge...I have done the same with European blades...and I have also had them soft as steel can get....go figure.

I have an assadullah here now in my collection...it is in good shape for now....but every now and then I get the urge....
Still looking for a running fox or other similar to test....

I can made a modern alloy steel perform poorly...and many current smiths can accomplish this without trying...or indeed intending to do so.

As to edge to edge contact proving one blade being superior to another..hogwash. Blades are dynamic things..hardness is but one of the criteria...which is what keeps this craft interesting...and frustrating.

Ric

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I make wootz, I make bloomery steel, I make European crucible steel (Huntsman), I make blister and shear steel (I'll be doing studies into Chinese cast iron decarburization next year)....I have conducted and had done at labs actual scientific testing on this material I make as well as the old blades I have. Some of this is posted on my website and some is not.
Simply because such information has not been released to the public does not mean that smiths are not conduction them. Frankly, I see little benefit to casting the results to the wind...folk who like old blades rarely buy new blades and folk who buy new blades have an interest in old blades...to a point.
As to "better" it matters little as those battle have been fought and won/lost before. I still get paper cuts and all my blades can cut paper, I get wood splinters and all by blades can shave wood...humans are soft and squishy..how "good" does an edge need to be to injure us? How good does a helmet need to be to keep the one under the bucket from getting cut?

As to hardness...it depends on the heat treatment of the blade and its carbon levels..nothing else. Without a doubt the as quenched hardness of a blade is dependent upon carbon level only.
I have hardness levels on old wootz that runs the gambit from 20 rockwell C to 58 RC..and the same for European and Japanese blades of the same time frames....hardness it seems is as variable as the style of blade and its culture.
If I were to make a general statement it would be that
"generally, hand made blades made from batch process steel (including European) was highly variable and that each needs to be individually evaluated." It would be nice to say otherwise as it would make evaluation simple, but life simply is not simple.

I straightened a 15th cent wootz blade a few years ago for a collector and it skated a file on the edge...I have done the same with European blades...and I have also had them soft as steel can get....go figure.

I have an assadullah here now in my collection...it is in good shape for now....but every now and then I get the urge....
Still looking for a running fox or other similar to test....

I can made a modern alloy steel perform poorly...and many current smiths can accomplish this without trying...or indeed intending to do so.

As to edge to edge contact proving one blade being superior to another..hogwash. Blades are dynamic things..hardness is but one of the criteria...which is what keeps this craft interesting...and frustrating.

Ric

Where's the LIKE button?

Jeff

[Gt Obach]

we can type our fingers to the bone, in the end, people will believe what they will
english steel, wootz steel, bloom steel, patternwelded steel is the best sword steel
--- and even amongst the categories there is love/hate for the varieties
wootz - woodgrain, laddered, roses, sham, add in all the Al-Kindi varieties and even regional divides

it just boggles my mind... how blown out of proportion it can get

Ric has a way of saying it well and as you can see, covering the many varieties of steel making ... very good to read

" humans are soft and squishy "

there is no hiding from this



by the bye, my choice for wootz is because i like the steel... all the varieties of mentioned steels will make excellent sword steels capable of being fantastic for what they are tasked to do... provided the smith does his/her part to make it so

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Richard.

I've been following this thread and have felt inclined to comment several times, but others have already covered the bases, so there is little I could add.

It is refreshing to read a calmly objective post such as yours .

My compliments.

Alan.

[laEspadaAncha]

I am sure I speak on behalf of countless forumites "lurking" on this thread when I express my gratitude to those involved in this discussion. While having an existing understanding of the difference between pattern welded and wootz, this has been highly educational. So thanks...

In digging through some dead threads, I came across this nugget form 2005:

FYI Brief History of Crucile Damascus Steel

A great read...

[Richard Furrer]

I really look forward to Dr. Feuerbach's book when she puts it out.
I recently ran a Merv crucible run here in the shop..learned a lot even though it failed...nothing to do with Ann's input ..more operator error on my end with a new technology.

I am as opinionated as anyone..its just that, working alone as I do, I find that nobody in the room cares much what I think..and the steel cares even less.

A walk through a museum is a different experience for you than it is for me. I am looking at display as a schoolroom..items I need to deconstruct and make my own... techniques to develop and make my own. A single display case often has more work in it that I will produce in my lifetime and of a level I may only reach when my journey is near its end.
Besides...hot steel is my focus, the blade as a technology..as a process...not the many faceted other aspects of what we call arms. I leave that to you educated lot, from whom I have gleaned much.

Ric....who's interest is most often gone once the work becomes room temperature.

[Pukka Bundook]

Sorry about bringing up an older thread, but the original question was about gun barrels, ...Not swords.
As we all know, the properties desired in a barrel are opposit to what is required in an edged weapon.
A iron mix is much better than a hard cutlery steel...which would likely fail very quickly if made into a barrel!
I do not think Woots per se, was used for gun barrels.
What was required for the latter, was an iron/steel twisted ribbon, wound around a mandrel to produce a pattern, the pattern complexity depending on the smith and price afforded by the customer.
A plain iron barrel will suffice, but the iron/steel barrel is more elastic ..and looks better!
Some jezails have very high quality barrels, and were renowned for accuracy as well.
Also some of these barrels are much older than the locks put on them, as many started out as matchlocks, and were updated with European flint or percussion locks.
RDGAC,....(Nuts'n'??)

I'll look out some pics and PM you.

Richard.

[RDGAC]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for brining it back up, actually. I'd forgotten about it for the while and, as usual, it had sunk into the mud that constitutes my memory at times, and that post was informative since I know basically zilch about metallurgy. Pics would be much appreciated. And yes, I am indeed Nuts!

Best

Meredydd