Barung(s) for you

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

This is the first of two barungs I picked up from the same dealer as the Kris. While it is not terribly old (as noted by the crest, rectangular beak, and fully wrapped scabbard -yeah I've been studying) the blade profile is slightly unusual and I just liked the overall feel of it. It struck me as genuine, can't articulate why -maybe y'all can help. The two things I noticed is that someone had tryied to reglue the tortoise shell with some kind of pinkish organic paste and that the center section of the scabbard had been rewrapped with what appeared to be newer rattan. The dealer attributed it to Tausug.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

The second purchase was another unusual blade profile. this one was atributed to the island of Palawan by the dealer. The scabbard is obviously new and the stain came off when I tried to clean it (I repaired that) additionally the front and upper carving are one piece while the back and lower carving are another. The scabbard design struck Ian as Visayan but the dealer said it was Palawan. The blade itself appears older, the ferrule has a piece missing underneath and is worn thin at this break. The crest has some primitive carving on only one side and the beak is traingular? Of course as soon as Ian showed any interest at all I put it in my pile .

[Federico]

Beyond the beak, and full wrap. According to Robert Cato, a sure fire sign (because not all post WWII barungs are fully wrapped) of a post WWII barong is the center ridge in the scabbard. I like the first one. The blade looks watered. They are still making good watered blades in Sulu today. The pinkish stuff is a modern epoxy, that starts appearing after WWII along with TVs and Coca-cola.

Palawan contains many Visayans. So possibly a Visayan made it in Palawan. Palawan is an interesting blend of ethnic groups. It does contain Visayan elements, but I am with the dealer on this one. Though perhaps new scabbard, old sword? The blade appears similar to alot of WWII era blades Ive seen. Long and slend fighters, just perfect against Japanese officers. Though of course, that is just a guess.

[zelbone]

Nice examples, Dan! The one from Palawan is interesting. I like the slender profile on the blade. The other barung I really like. The blade profile is interesting...it looks like it recurves a bit...very interesting. I'm sure it feels good in the hand...like a real weapon. One of the first barungs I aquired is very similar to this. I got mine from Cecil Quirino of Kris Cutlery and chose it out of over a couple dozen barungs he had at his home. It just felt right and I really liked the tortoiseshell on the scabbard...much better than mother of pearl and less common as well. I have several other barungs, but that one is by far my favorite...even more so than my double-edged shandigan and my old junggayans. This one just feels good...just the right length and weight and perfectly balanced.

[MABAGANI]

Any comments on this barung? I thought it was interesting and purchased because it had a few symbols I had not seen before.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3952795616

[Ian]

Here are the markings on Mabagini's new barung, just so we have a record for everyone. At least one of these, notably the diamond with little circles at the corners, does not strike me as being exclusively Moro as I have seen similar marks on an item from Luzon. My wife had a 19th C. gold pendant with a Catholic icon on one side and this mark on the other.

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

Thanks Ian for posting pics, the symbol you're referring to also appear on a Moro agimat shirt I have. We often find Chinese writings on barungs, that's why I ended picking up this odd one, looks like a combination of script and and other symbols.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Originally Posted by zelbone

. I'm sure it feels good in the hand...like a real weapon. One of the first barungs I aquired is very similar to this. .

I've got this one on my desk this week and no one has passed that has not stopped to pull it out and try its heft. The usual reaction is WHOA! Just slightly tip heavy, it feels deadly, and it's already bit two people who didn't treat it with enough respect .

Mabagani, those marks on your blade are interesting, I've a golok with a similiar diamond shape. The rest look almost like some kind of pictograph. Hope someone can shed some light on this.

[Federico]

I seem to remember a kris with similar symbols popping up before, and Battara identifying the odd looking diamond symbol as the ring of Soloman. At least that particular symbol has popped up on a number of other pieces. As to the others, well I am not good with symbols. For years I thought the double bladed sword of David (was it David) on one my kris was a man until Battara cleared that up.

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Federico

I seem to remember a kris with similar symbols popping up before, and Battara identifying the odd looking diamond symbol as the ring of Soloman. At least that particular symbol has popped up on a number of other pieces. As to the others, well I am not good with symbols. For years I thought the double bladed sword of David (was it David) on one my kris was a man until Battara cleared that up.

Mohammed's sword is the double blade, it's used graphically in different forms in Islamic art, I've seen it edges curving upward and also in opposite directions, to me, it is a sword of mercy piercing the heart of the enemy towards conversion, rather than killing.

[Ian]

cross different cultures, but were particularly popular in Medieval Europe. And they have strong links to Freemasonry.

Here is a link that shows a reproduction of the Key of Solomon talismans in the Warsaw Museum: http://silverinsanity.biz/~silverin/....cgi/3534.html

Below is a picture from that site.

[Battara]

Here are the pictures to which Federico and Mabagani were refering.

The first two are of a sultan's barong made of ivory, gold, and silver with silver inlay of talimanic devices, including the "sword of the Prophet" from The Gods of War by the Metropolitan Museum in NY. The third is the same motif on an Ottoman banner from the 19thc, Christies Auction.

[zamboanga]

hey mabagani, that's my barong!

magsukul tuud! thank you!

i got that one from a tausug trader. it was a choice between that and one with a shandigan blade. as to info on the marks on your barong, i'll have to ask him the next time.

here are additional pics of the barong whose weight by the way is 3/4 kilos:

[MABAGANI]

Zamboanga, etch shows nice on your pic, can we see your shandigan barung too. I'd like to hear what the Tausug trader knows about the marks. I'll post again when I handle and examine the sword.
Battara, I never get tired of seeing that barung...

[MABAGANI]

Bumping this subject brought up about barungs from the recent keris to kris/dating thread.

So where does Sulu/Tausug and the barung in your opinion fall into place, if the Maranao and Iranun retain the kampilan early on as their weapon of choice with the kris coming at some later point. Again it is in the 17th century where I find first mention of the barung and strangely it is in relation to Maguindanao history. In regards to the diffusion of the keris to kris, I don't see it only limited to Sulu, there are clear examples of the early form transcending the major Moro regions that remained independent including Brunei, Sulu, Maguindanao and Maranao each carrying their own characteristics but only one verifiable point in history where they converge, during the rise of the Maguindanao Sultanate, an explanation for the uniform shape of the early kris form. This does not point to an exclusive origin to the Maguindanao but a joint effort among the various Sultanates to consolidate culturally. The barung became favored among the Tausug and was later used to indentify themselves as a distinct group as they began their rise to power while the Maguindanaos declined.
btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

[Spunjer]

this is kinda straying of the main topic but it's something that i feel relates to what you've just mentioned, mabagani. i posted this on a different forum, so rather than typing it all over again, i'll copy-n-paste it here:

...which leads me to my personal theory:

was arnis/escrima developed by the visayans as a form of self defense against the pillaging moros? i really don't subscribed to 'it's been there before the spaniards came'. even pigafetta's report was vague. i know it's common knowledge on FMA that lapulapu used some type of kali art to defeat magellan, but if you read pigafetta's report (google it!), in a roundabout way, he got hit with a spear, and when the natives saw him fall, they bumrushed the guy. so where's the kali skill on that? also if you looked at where escrima is predominant in the map, it's centered at panay/negros/cebu area, direct access from mindanao. another clue are the masters. did you ever noticed that majority are visayans? if there were masters from somewhere else (luzon and northern mindanao), they either;
a)learned it from a visayan.
b)their family migrated from the visayan region.
c)saw it from their trip to the visayas

you see my pattern here? so to sum it up, arnis/escrima originated in visayan region within the last 300-400 years ago, out of neccessity, to defend themselves from the marauding moros. the visayan must've been so terrorized and at the same time enthralled by the way these moros handled their barungs, krises, kampilans, piras and bangkungs that they have to come up with a way to defend themselves. they saw a pattern/patterns on how the moros fight, and exploited that angle. how is that first practiced? by using sticks. and then later on the skill being transferred to binangons, tenegre, pinuti and some other indegenous visayan weapon.

i know i'm opening a can of worms here, but not after i started collecting moro weapons did the whole picture started to make sense. you see, after starting collecting, i started reading about our forgotten brothers, to learn more about their history and within just these past few months, i've learned so much about them and their weapons. the sad thing about it, i used to live in mindanao...

and here's a response...

Spunjer,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
esgrimador,

this is interesting that someone laid out this theories before! could you please give me some links? i know FMA has been romanticized. that all good, but the truth is still out there somewhere...


Here's the link to some good articles on this specific subject. The first one by Celestino Macachor is especially fascinating (and it has apparently been updated and expanded):

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

like i said, it's pretty interesting. i guess another angle to look at.

[LabanTayo]

thats funny.....a barong used for a visayan or luzon art.....
i've heard the same thing for a long time.
all FMA'ist's do need to read their history and background of their art's.
most FMA's come from the visayas area.

if anyone knows of what art was based on the Samar Garab, let me know. still trying to figure out how it is used.

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

thats funny.....a barong used for a visayan or luzon art.....
i've heard the same thing for a long time.
all FMA'ist's do need to read their history and background of their art's.
most FMA's come from the visayas area.

if anyone knows of what art was based on the Samar Garab, let me know. still trying to figure out how it is used.

i'm not sure if i can recall any ONE system that centers around the garab, however there is a special significance to the garab and its "relationship" to bangsamoro.

[themorningstar]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

i agree mabagani.you see no evil, because there is no evil. barungs are evil, simple as that mabagani. the saddest part to it all are those that try to fit the barung into their system. the barung is a system and science onto itself.

[MABAGANI]

Huun, barung taymanghud usug

[engar]

Mabagani, can you speak a little about the traditional use of barong?
Thanks.

[MABAGANI]

Sworn to secrecy...not to offend, but traditional combative arts from Mindanao and Sulu are handed down generation to generation within families and protected. Ask any Moro who knows and they would not readily display it, their fighting arts have kept them safe for centuries and are held in confidence and cherished, one of the reasons why when I see people use a barung, or kris or kampilan for that matter and say this is how its used and they show me their eskrima or arnis moves I wonder why they try to pass it on as truth...

[engar]

Don´t worry You didn´t offend me. It´s very difficult find info about Moro fighting skills (silat, kuntao, arnis or whatever). Anyway I don´t know why but info about Luzon and Visaya weapons are very uncommon while you can found a lot of info about Moro weapons easily.

[MABAGANI]

Keep seeking Engar, I've been persistent for decades searching for real teachers and have been fortunate. Have you checked out the Moro and Philippine weaponry at the museums there in Spain? A few years ago Marc showed me pics from some of the collections. I travelled to Spain in '99, toured the Alhambra and several cities, but there was no time to trek the museums, good reason to go back some day.

[engar]

Keep seeking Engar, I've been persistent for decades searching for real teachers and have been fortunate.
If it´s hard to find good teachers in the Philippines try to imagine outside Philippines (and USA). Spanish have the bigger philippino community in Europe and I haven´t notice about any philippino FMA teacher (apart from any fraud of the past).
The Spanish Army museum have a very good Philippine weaponry collection, I want to go after I´ll finish my exams and my vacation if you are interested I´ll send you the pics.
Then if you come back some day I´ll show you Madrid

[MABAGANI]

Yes, if you go to major cities in Europe, you'll find Filipinos hanging out in the main squares especially on the weekends.
Do share pics and if you don't mind take shots of Moro cannons and battle flags too, with over three centuries of fighting I'd expect their museums would have much to show, even early drawings of ships are found there.

[Battara]

Speaking of barungs, Mabagani, I see that you changed your avatar. I like the new picture. Somehow looks familiar.

[Federico]

Ok, I get busy, go offline for a while, and here is a nice long post on barongs. Well since a lot of ground has been covered here, Ill try and see if I can slip in the best I can. Since this is a barong thread, Ill address only barongs, Ill address kris in the other thread, with one exception.

Labantayo, one hint at the possible traditional use of the garab, may come from the book Muddy Glory by Russel Roth. If I remember rightly (I dont have the book in front of me), if we associate the garab with the pulahan aka. pulajan aka. dios-dios of Samar and Leyte, at least one account in this book attributes to them that they were known for a double sword style. Now this is vague, does not necessarily point to the garab, and not very helpful but it is something.

As for the barong in FMA, as LabanTayo has noted a simple trace of your arts lineage should clear that up. Unfortunately, particularly for those of us in the US and Europe, most FMA that we are seeing has a very limited, and I stress limited set of sources. Eg. the Stockton Guros (Angel Cabales, Leo Giron, etc...), Pekiti Tersia (eg. Leo Gaje), Modern Arnis (Remy Presas), Doce Pares (either Diony or Cacoy), etc... While there are a plethora of teachers these days, you trace back and it comes back down to a small handful. Out of that handful, almost none have any real connection to Moroland, let alone a Moro fighting art. Of all the old manongs, I dont believe (with the exception of Tatang Illustrisimo) that really any claimed to be teaching a Moro art. Yet, it is the 2nd and most often 3rd and 4th generation teachers/students that seem to be spreading this myth. So where does it start, and how do you make sense out of it. If your teacher was from the US, his teacher from Visayas, and his teacher's teacher from Visayas, where does the Moro enter in the picture to teach the teacher some Moro technique let alone base the art off of a Moro weapon. Further complicating matters, is how non-blade oriented many FMA groups have become. Definitely a good way to generate power with a stick, can be very different depending on the type of blade weapon one is using. I know many in my own Eskrima group, who cannot translate their FMA into a blade because of their lack of any real blade experience. The stick in Arnis/Eskrima was intended as a training tool only for beginning students, and for many it was a good training tool because one grew up with a bolo, and did not have to re-learn how to handle it. I know from my father's own story about how his grandfather tried to teach him "arnis" a stick never entered the equation, and training was all bolo all the time. Anyways, that being said, I know in my own training, while certain principles can be taken as a universal applications of motion, none of the moves have really struck me as built around Moro weaponry. I have always felt the moves much more comfortable and natural to execute using bolo, rather than kris or barong.

Spunjer, as for Arnis/Eskrima only existing in Visayas, that can easily be traced back to the limited number of teachers who have openly taught here in the US. Visayan's were well represented amongst the early Filipino immigrants in the US, while other groups were not. There are definitely non-Visayan Eskrima/Arnis styles that werent simply taught to them by some Visayan. I can think of at least one group that pops up immidiately to my mind, and that would be Garimot Arnis. There are definitely many many different styles still in PI, that have not been taught outside of their families, let alone publically, and unfortunately even more that have been lost due to modernization. Visayas, particularly Cebu, is very well known, particularly due to the efforts of the Canete brothers, in their promotion of FMA as a more public affair. But I can assure you, that for many family styles, FMA is not something to be shared with the public, but something to be cherished and kept within the family alone. But beyond this, what constitutes FMA in itself varies greatly. I know my great-grandfather supposedly learned his style piece by piece, from his voyages as a sailor. A core set of techniques, but also adding Chinese/Indonesian/Malaysian techniques as his voyages brought him into contact with other styles from port to port. There does definitely seem to be a core connection between the FMA weapon arts and the ocean/sailors.

Anyways, as for the origin of the Barong. I still feel the answer, like the origin of the kris, lies in finding provenanced pieces. Without a provenanced pieces, we are dealing with theory. Eg. when a myth speaks of a Barong, is it speaking of the barung sword as we know it in Sulu, the barong demon as is pernicious amongst many Malay states/cultures, or something different. Do modern Maguindanao claim the sword, where do their origin myths attribute it to? Unfortunately, I do not know which 17th account you are referring to, and to what context the barong is mentioned. But one thing that is equally important, aside from identifying what exactly they are describing, would be in what context are they describing it? Anyways, it is not something I have given much thought to, as I have always felt it deeply rooted in Sulu culture, in much the same way I feel the Kampilan has been rooted to Mindanao. Though Zamboanga, the Iranun, and Balangingi Samal definitely throw wrenches into theorization. Most particularly Zamboanga, a melting pot region in which one finds Mindanao and Sulu groups and items mixing freely. Hmmmm....I had a better response before oh well...

[zamboanga]

from the link provided by spunjer (http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html):

"Or maybe they (moros) really don't have any organized sword fighting system after all and relied purely on suicidal frenzy and the sharpness of their Kris at the height of mayhem"

my question is, would that have been possible? how can a group of people, relying supposedly on an unorganized fighting system, succesfully repulse the advances of Spain's army over a very long period of time?

i believe there is more than a system involved. and for that i suggest anyone to study the culture beyond the weapons.

even today one can see the "warrior" mentality nurtured among joloanos. and i don't mean that in a negative or a positive way. they are prepared for battle even when there is none. it is there is what i am saying.

examples i can site, ask any true blooded jolo-born lady and i bet she can show you how to disassemble a 1911 and put it back together in a snap. i have seen an 11 year old girl load a full magazine of heavy m14 bullets using her elbows. while the weapons have been replaced, the culture is still there.

my point is if you apply this to those times of old - surely a "systematic" way of blade fighting could have evolve from those hand-me down instructions. kali or not, there is a system.

going back to the link. interestingly, while the author claimed to have travelled the "entire breadth of Mindanao" he only mentions places like Ipil, Dumingag, Margosatubig and Ozamiz. These are places where the visayans dominate in populace. surely you won't find your kali man or whatever moro martials practitioner there.

he should have visited lamitan or jolo.

just my sharing. peace!

[Rick]

As a complete novice regarding FMA and or any relationship it may or may not have to Moro martial arts I've got to ask you guys this question ; what MA system was I watching during the Crossing Sulu Seas video when they were working with Barung , Kris and Budjak ?