A new generation of fakes

ariel · 30th December 2006, 05:25 PM

We all see these "Russian" swords coming from China on e-bay. The markings are ridiculous.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0772&rd=1&rd=1
This one ( just ended) is a somewhat different beast: the markings are still full of errors, strange symbols, misspellings etc. However, the Zlatoust stamp is much closer to the original. It is a fake, no doubt, but the level of sophistication is improving markedly.
Caveat emptor!!!

BBJW · 30th December 2006, 05:31 PM

I wish Ebay would stop accepting listings from China. It certainly would condense the listing pages.

RhysMichael · 30th December 2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

We all see these "Russian" swords coming from China on e-bay. The markings are ridiculous.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0772&rd=1&rd=1
This one ( just ended) is a somewhat different beast: the markings are still full of errors, strange symbols, misspellings etc. However, the Zlatoust stamp is much closer to the original. It is a fake, no doubt, but the level of sophistication is improving markedly.
Caveat emptor!!!

Thanks for the heads up. I would love to oneday own some russian swords. this is a shame as usual

Flavio · 30th December 2006, 05:35 PM

Ariel, i know nothing of these things, but i see it and first i think "seems good", but what make me think is that always they are too much complete (i mean also the bayonet). Anyway for those like me that are completly ignorant these things are very dangerous!! Thanks

William.m · 30th December 2006, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBJW

I wish Ebay would stop accepting listings from China. It certainly would condense the listing pages.

I would prefer it if you could filter out countries that you did not want included in the search.

Will

Battara · 30th December 2006, 07:23 PM

Interesting that it is coming from a vender in UK. Guess once these escape from China, they get around.

HUSAR · 30th December 2006, 07:31 PM

Probably we can soon expect some "nice" indo-persian fakes

while I have seen Chinese dealers buying books on indo persian arms and armor .... as well as some daggers and swords...

ariel · 30th December 2006, 11:33 PM

If you want to buy a Russian sword on e-bay and have doubts, please feel free to send me or Rivkin a PM: we will be glad to help.

TVV · 31st December 2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUSAR

Probably we can soon expect some "nice" indo-persian fakes

while I have seen Chinese dealers buying books on indo persian arms and armor .... as well as some daggers and swords...

I somehow do not see the Chinese massproducing wootz blades to sell them at $0.99 ($75 shipping).

William.m · 31st December 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I somehow do not see the Chinese massproducing wootz blades to sell them at $0.99 ($75 shipping).

I wouldn't put it past them. Sometimes when at auctions I see terrible fake guntos with a hada that has been etched on with acid. This can be easily modified into a fake wootz. Sure it would look terrible but could fool the beginner.

Will

BBJW · 31st December 2006, 12:46 AM

I think Husar is right and it is only a matter of time. If you buy a piece from China for .99 + $100.00 shipping chances are close to 99.999% it's a fake. A very real problem is people who have bought these fakes trying to recoup their money. Wishing everyone a Happy Healthy New Year!

bj

BSMStar · 31st December 2006, 04:29 AM

As a Soviet collector, and briefly browsing through the other offerings... everything that I saw was suspect… the prices were a bit on the low side, but to have so many rare badges in perfect condition (and yet a bit crudely made), I would save my money. Not all repros come out of China. The Russian tend to repro a bunch of their “own stuff” too.

Flavio · 31st December 2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If you want to buy a Russian sword on e-bay and have doubts, please feel free to send me or Rivkin a PM: we will be glad to help.

Thank you for the kindness, Ariel and Kirill

HUSAR · 31st December 2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I somehow do not see the Chinese massproducing wootz blades to sell them at $0.99 ($75 shipping).

Hello
I would not expect that Chinese are going to produce wootz, but there is big number of expensive items which could be reproduced. I have already seen chain mails with riveted rings... and nice bazubands of welded damast pattern...
Best
HUSAR

ariel · 31st December 2006, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

As a Soviet collector, and briefly browsing through the other offerings... everything that I saw was suspect… the prices were a bit on the low side, but to have so many rare badges in perfect condition (and yet a bit crudely made), I would save my money. Not all repros come out of China. The Russian tend to repro a bunch of their “own stuff” too.

Have you noticed that most of the Russian Tsarist-era military swords on e-bay are inscibed "Za Khrabrost" ( "For gallantry") and have a St. Anne's cross?
Kind of a Lake Wobegon ('" all children are above average") military

Tatyana Dianova · 6th January 2007, 10:02 PM

Hello All!

I just have found in one serious (

) Russian Internet shop a Zlatoust shashka which was already sold. It is claimed to be 100% original. But it looks to me that markings have same errors.
It would be interesting for me to know if it is a fake or not, or maybe it is a compilation?
http://www.leibstandarte.ru/good.php?id=3972
Also, can somebody give me any trusted sources, where real samples (good photos and detailed descriptions) of shashkas from different times (especially WW1 to WW2) are shown. From my side I can recommend following books:
Russian Cold Arms, A.N.Kulinskiy, Atlant, 2005 (In Russian)
Russian Cold Arms 1800 - 1917, A.N.Kulinskiy, 1994 (In Russian)
Just to claim that something is a fake, without providing any evidences is not proper.

ariel · 8th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Tatyana,
I think this one is legit. Of course, handling would be much better, but...
The original "shashka" that started this thread, was an obvious Chinese fake, as based on the inscriptions: one doesn't need to perform a sophisticated analysis to claim that that a particular portrait is not by Rembrandt if the "Flemish lady" is wearing a "Swatch" and the paint is acrylic

Where are you from?

Tatyana Dianova · 23rd February 2007, 12:59 PM

Hi Ariel and all,
The strange thing is, that I have found your answer (from 8th January!!!) only yesterday. I was checking the thread first 2 or 3 weeks after my question and no answer appeared. I even have sent you a PM. But let's return to discussion.
What is even more strange, is that you think, that Leibstandarte shashka is legit.
1. Its blade has the same factory markings as eBay one, and I think they are quite different from the Kulinskiy book.
2. Leibstandarte shashka is dated 1920 and has a USSR (CCCP) engraving. My school history lessons were so many years ago (yes, I am a former Soviet citizen, living at the moment in Germany), but I remember, that USSR was created in 1924. Before it was called RSFSR. That's why it is so strange for me to see USSR country name 4 years before it even appeared.
3. The Leibstandarte shop looks cool and claims to has good experts, but I have seen so called general's shin-gunto on the site, which didn't look at all like Japanese military sword.
So, I think that nowadays it is very difficult to tell from the pictures, if the sword is a real one. And even hard to tell when you see it in person, because to make a good replic of any military weapon is not so difficult. And what do you think?

ariel · 23rd February 2007, 03:44 PM

Dear Tatyana,
I was not available on the Forum for reasons not entirely discussable

I just saw a sword from China that is a Mother of all Piltdown Men: Japanese Kyu Gunto handle, Prussian handguard, swastika with wrong orientation and a blade stamped " soviet". Of course, it had a cupreous this, cowskin that, was eximious and belonged to a housecarl. I could not find a signature by Assadollah, but it will likely be included and available on their 2008 model...

I was sorely tempted to buy it for 99 cents just to have the besr (or worst?) example of the post-Mao private enterpreneurship in China, but shipping was $124

But you are correct, and that was exactly the point of my original post: the forgeries become more and more sophisticated and it is more and more difficult to pinpoint one, even after careful personal inspection... If the market for antique weapons continues to be brisk, we shall see more and more fake creations of exceptional quality.

FenrisWolf · 28th February 2007, 05:08 AM

Add an "Imperial German Sword" to the list of Chinese fakes:

The seller is listed as being in the US, but if you review his feedback you see that the items are actually shipped from China....

Mod's Edit: Removal of active auction link. Sorry Fenris.

30th December 2006, 05:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A new generation of fakes We all see these "Russian" swords coming from China on e-bay. The markings are ridiculous. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0772&rd=1&rd=1 This one ( just ended) is a somewhat different beast: the markings are still full of errors, strange symbols, misspellings etc. However, the Zlatoust stamp is much closer to the original. It is a fake, no doubt, but the level of sophistication is improving markedly. Caveat emptor!!!

30th December 2006, 05:31 PM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Chinese fakes I wish Ebay would stop accepting listings from China. It certainly would condense the listing pages.

31st December 2006, 12:46 AM	#11
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Chinese fakes I think Husar is right and it is only a matter of time. If you buy a piece from China for .99 + $100.00 shipping chances are close to 99.999% it's a fake. A very real problem is people who have bought these fakes trying to recoup their money. Wishing everyone a Happy Healthy New Year! bj

23rd February 2007, 03:44 PM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Tatyana, I was not available on the Forum for reasons not entirely discussable I just saw a sword from China that is a Mother of all Piltdown Men: Japanese Kyu Gunto handle, Prussian handguard, swastika with wrong orientation and a blade stamped " soviet". Of course, it had a cupreous this, cowskin that, was eximious and belonged to a housecarl. I could not find a signature by Assadollah, but it will likely be included and available on their 2008 model... I was sorely tempted to buy it for 99 cents just to have the besr (or worst?) example of the post-Mao private enterpreneurship in China, but shipping was $124 But you are correct, and that was exactly the point of my original post: the forgeries become more and more sophisticated and it is more and more difficult to pinpoint one, even after careful personal inspection... If the market for antique weapons continues to be brisk, we shall see more and more fake creations of exceptional quality. Last edited by ariel; 23rd February 2007 at 03:59 PM.

28th February 2007, 05:08 AM	#20
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Add an "Imperial German Sword" to the list of Chinese fakes: The seller is listed as being in the US, but if you review his feedback you see that the items are actually shipped from China.... Mod's Edit: Removal of active auction link. Sorry Fenris. Last edited by Andrew; 28th February 2007 at 01:28 PM.

30th December 2006, 05:35 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Ariel, i know nothing of these things, but i see it and first i think "seems good", but what make me think is that always they are too much complete (i mean also the bayonet). Anyway for those like me that are completly ignorant these things are very dangerous!! Thanks

30th December 2006, 07:23 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Interesting that it is coming from a vender in UK. Guess once these escape from China, they get around.

30th December 2006, 07:31 PM	#7
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Probably we can soon expect some "nice" indo-persian fakes while I have seen Chinese dealers buying books on indo persian arms and armor .... as well as some daggers and swords...

30th December 2006, 11:33 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If you want to buy a Russian sword on e-bay and have doubts, please feel free to send me or Rivkin a PM: we will be glad to help.

31st December 2006, 04:29 AM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	As a Soviet collector, and briefly browsing through the other offerings... everything that I saw was suspect… the prices were a bit on the low side, but to have so many rare badges in perfect condition (and yet a bit crudely made), I would save my money. Not all repros come out of China. The Russian tend to repro a bunch of their “own stuff” too.

6th January 2007, 10:02 PM	#16
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Hello All! I just have found in one serious ( ) Russian Internet shop a Zlatoust shashka which was already sold. It is claimed to be 100% original. But it looks to me that markings have same errors. It would be interesting for me to know if it is a fake or not, or maybe it is a compilation? http://www.leibstandarte.ru/good.php?id=3972 Also, can somebody give me any trusted sources, where real samples (good photos and detailed descriptions) of shashkas from different times (especially WW1 to WW2) are shown. From my side I can recommend following books: Russian Cold Arms, A.N.Kulinskiy, Atlant, 2005 (In Russian) Russian Cold Arms 1800 - 1917, A.N.Kulinskiy, 1994 (In Russian) Just to claim that something is a fake, without providing any evidences is not proper.

8th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Tatyana, I think this one is legit. Of course, handling would be much better, but... The original "shashka" that started this thread, was an obvious Chinese fake, as based on the inscriptions: one doesn't need to perform a sophisticated analysis to claim that that a particular portrait is not by Rembrandt if the "Flemish lady" is wearing a "Swatch" and the paint is acrylic Where are you from?

23rd February 2007, 12:59 PM	#18
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Hi Ariel and all, The strange thing is, that I have found your answer (from 8th January!!!) only yesterday. I was checking the thread first 2 or 3 weeks after my question and no answer appeared. I even have sent you a PM. But let's return to discussion. What is even more strange, is that you think, that Leibstandarte shashka is legit. 1. Its blade has the same factory markings as eBay one, and I think they are quite different from the Kulinskiy book. 2. Leibstandarte shashka is dated 1920 and has a USSR (CCCP) engraving. My school history lessons were so many years ago (yes, I am a former Soviet citizen, living at the moment in Germany), but I remember, that USSR was created in 1924. Before it was called RSFSR. That's why it is so strange for me to see USSR country name 4 years before it even appeared. 3. The Leibstandarte shop looks cool and claims to has good experts, but I have seen so called general's shin-gunto on the site, which didn't look at all like Japanese military sword. So, I think that nowadays it is very difficult to tell from the pictures, if the sword is a real one. And even hard to tell when you see it in person, because to make a good replic of any military weapon is not so difficult. And what do you think?