French dagger for comment

[Sajen]

Hello dear members,

have recently purchased this French dagger, blade, guard and scabbard is very similar to the so called "dague de pute" but the handle is very similar to the German "nicker" daggers, a "coup de grace". So what it is? A "dague de pute" or a hunting dagger?
It is 24 cm long inside the scabbard and only a little bit shorter without with a blade from 11,5 cm. The weight is 128 gram. The last picture show it together with one of my Corsican Vendetta daggers.
A similar piece was once shown here but with missing ferrule and guard, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=french+dagger
All comments are very welcome!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Sajen

... blade, guard and scabbard is very similar to the so called "dague de pute" ...

Funny; i would never take it that this setup resembles those called dagues de pute .

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by fernando

Funny; i would never take it that this setup resembles those called dagues de pute .

Really not Fernando? Please compare scabbard style, guard, ferrule and cross section of this dagger from the same seller, sadly I wasn't able to win this one also.

Regards,
Detlef

[fernando]

Well Detlef, i will not be having a definite position on this one (as in many others), neither i guess that there is a definite typology of the dague de pute (whore's dagger); starting by this being a French name attribution for these things, whereas i realize women of other countries also resourced this concealed weapon, namely in Far West saloons; a weapon small enough to hide inside the bodice or tied to the leg under the dress ... or even inside the boot.
While i will not contest however that there (maybe) is a determined pattern, namely inspired by the French, i will not reject that a dague de pute is what we 'intend' to be, as long as its dimensions and conditioned approach do serve the purpose, so to say.
But, a curved blade version, that's news for me. Still i am playing by ear, hence my assessment not being a trusty one..

.

[Sajen]

Hello Fernando,

I am not sure as well, I've seen a few in the same style like the one in question, all with the same parameters and I've noticed that there are a lot of similarity with the so called (frensh) dagues de pute, mainly the scabbard style so I think that they are from the same time frame and maybe the same workshop. I think that we only can guess if this daggers with curved blade are dagues de pute or coupe de grace like the german nickers. The reason why I ask in my initial post.

Regards,
Detlef

[Helleri]

I find it interesting that it has such curvature as if for cutting while having a foiled blade. Usually trifoil or quatrefoil blade is so to stiffen the blade against flexing and reinforce the tip. As in almost exclusively thrust oriented. Such blades are typically strait, with the tip riding the center line. The design of this seems self defeating. It wouldn't be as good of a Stabby McStaberson as it could be were the blade and handle strait. But due to the foils, Even with a sharp edge, it couldn't cut very deeply either.

[Sajen]

Hello Helleri,

thank you for comment. Yes, this knife is a pure stabbing dagger, the edges are not sharpened but the point is very acute and it will be a deadly weapon with minimal thrusting power and I think that it is in this case irrelevant if the blade is straight or curved.

Regards,
Detlef

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Helleri,

thank you for comment. Yes, this knife is a pure stabbing dagger, the edges are not sharpened but the point is very acute and it will be a deadly weapon with minimal thrusting power and I think that it is in this case irrelevant if the blade is straight or curved.

Regards,
Detlef

See the modified image attached. Note that the tip on the top knife is well above the center-line. Whereas with the bottom knife the tip is exactly in-line with the center-line. The more a tip is in-line with the center-line; The more thrust effective it is; Because the more directly force can be magnified into the tip.

Curvature in a blade is for:

1) Increasing the amount of edge contained within a length (A curved blade has more edge than a strait blade measured guard to tip in a strait line).

2) Increasing ability to absorb and redistribute shock from lateral or shear impact.

3) Decreasing the area of contact so as to magnify force (a reduction in area concentrates and amplifies force in the same way that a lens can gather light into a single more intense point).

When a blade is curved it looses some thrust efficiency. It also gains cutting efficiency. However the veins of the foiling on this blade would prevent the blade from making a through cut. That doesn't mean that it should have no cutting capacity. Push and pull cutting is a useful tactic in many combative forms. But the same increase in cutting efficiency can be achieved without sacrificing thrusting efficiency by profile tapering of a blade.

The foils get in the way of the curvature being effective for cutting. The curvature brings the tip off center-line and thus detracts from the foils ability to aid in thrusting. The design of the blade shows confusion. It doesn't know what it wants to be so it ends up not being particularly good at either mode of use (or at least not nearly as good as it could be in either capacity).

It's still cool looking. But I wouldn't want to take it into a fight over a blade that is better designed for doing one thing or the other. Or over a blade that uses tapering to be good at both things. Not all old weapons were necessarily well conceived. A maker might be really good at the technical aspects of constructing a blade but have no eye for practicality due to no combat experience. Or maybe they are deliberately departing from what is known to work as an experiment.

Not saying the blade isn't worth owning. Because of it's odd design it might be more worth owning. As it makes it a good conversation piece. A blade that shows how a blade should not be designed is as useful as one that shows what works the best for purpose in use.

[fernando]

By (all) the looks of it, i wouldn't reject that, the inclination of its maker was more towards its design than to its stabbing efficacy.
The horn handle raising the hunting dagger possibility, i would dismiss it due to its short length; unless if it were a 'coup de grace' for wounded game but, again, the curved blade would have no purpose. Notwithstanding that, yould would still be able to stab with it with lethal effects.
All in all, an elegant little knife

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Helleri

Curvature in a blade is for:

1) Increasing the amount of edge contained within a length (A curved blade has more edge than a strait blade measured guard to tip in a strait line).

2) Increasing ability to absorb and redistribute shock from lateral or shear impact.

3) Decreasing the area of contact so as to magnify force (a reduction in area concentrates and amplifies force in the same way that a lens can gather light into a single more intense point).

When a blade is curved it looses some thrust efficiency. It also gains cutting efficiency. However the veins of the foiling on this blade would prevent the blade from making a through cut. That doesn't mean that it should have no cutting capacity. Push and pull cutting is a useful tactic in many combative forms. But the same increase in cutting efficiency can be achieved without sacrificing thrusting efficiency by profile tapering of a blade.

The foils get in the way of the curvature being effective for cutting. The curvature brings the tip off center-line and thus detracts from the foils ability to aid in thrusting. The design of the blade shows confusion. It doesn't know what it wants to be so it ends up not being particularly good at either mode of use (or at least not nearly as good as it could be in either capacity).

It's still cool looking. But I wouldn't want to take it into a fight over a blade that is better designed for doing one thing or the other. Or over a blade that uses tapering to be good at both things. Not all old weapons were necessarily well conceived. A maker might be really good at the technical aspects of constructing a blade but have no eye for practicality due to no combat experience. Or maybe they are deliberately departing from what is known to work as an experiment.

Not saying the blade isn't worth owning. Because of it's odd design it might be more worth owning. As it makes it a good conversation piece. A blade that shows how a blade should not be designed is as useful as one that shows what works the best for purpose in use.

Hello Helleri,

you are certainly correct but there a lot of similar styled blades like this, think only to khanjars.
And think about that you push a dagger not always in a straight line. I am not used in material arts so I only can guess.
Anyway, I like it and it will stay for some time in my collection.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by fernando

All in all, an elegant little knife

Thank you Fernando!

Regards,
Detlef