Italian or Austrian saber?

mteuthof · 6th August 2020, 12:38 PM

Good afternoon everyone,

Can anyone help me with the origin and date of this saber?
I think it is Italian or Austrian but I am not sure.

Thanks in advance for your help.

corrado26 · 6th August 2020, 06:00 PM

It is certainly not Italian and not Austrian! I think it is British!

kronckew · 6th August 2020, 07:54 PM

Italian sabres of late 19c with bowl guards like that would have an indent for the thumb along the spine.

Austrian ones had 2 parallel narrow cut-outs in the front of the bowl guard possibly for a sword knot.

Your scabbard with the two fixed rings is quite British & late 19c, the grip leather/wire looks like a replacement.

Possible private purchase? Issue swords usually if not always has a slot in the guard near the pommel for a sword knot*. The tassled cord looped it the scabbard ring looks like a drapery tie-back & not military. The scabbard also looks like it was re-issued to a different regiment after the original had had them replaced with newer models. (it also appears to be missing the short slotted head screw that secures the scabbard throat, you may want to replace that.)

*- Oddly, naval sword specs did NOT ever call for a sword knot slot on naval enlisted cutlass patterns, only officers and warrants rated a sword knot. However, they - the cutlasses - were obtained thru the army ordinance department, all army officers, and they had a inflexible rule that all swords HAD to have a slot for a sword knot, so the navy got them in spite of their objections. Logistics were a bit convoluted back then and were distinctly "We've done it this way for 300 years, and we'll keep doing it that way for the next 300".

Bryce · 6th August 2020, 10:59 PM

The scabbard looks like a genuine, British 1908 pattern cavalry troopers'. The sword blade also looks like a 1908 cavalry troopers'. The hilt has some features of the British 1897 infantry officers pattern, but without any cut-outs. The grip is at best a replacement, but it may be that the sword is some sort of modern reproduction. Are there any stamps on it anywhere? Below is my 1908 pattern cavalry troopers' sword.
Cheers,
Bryce

kronckew · 7th August 2020, 09:06 AM

Interesting info on the 1908 sword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNY5p5h8eQ4

I'd always wanted a 1908 until I saw the comments on it. I DO have an Indian sabre like he mentioned with the 1796 style blade & 1821 style guard/grip, it handles even better than the 1796 and has a wider and thicker blade root. The Brits finally forced the Indian regement to use them, tho I gather they were still issued to Mountain troops (Khyber pass?) for quite a while after the others.

I've read somewhere about the first engagement of UK and German cavalry in WW1 before the trenching started. A British cavalry troop charged a German Uhlan troop armed with lances, in the ensuing melee a number of German lancers were killed an the rest fled, persued by the Brits. The Germans hopped a barbed wire cattle fence while the Brits horses refused to jump it. Apparently the Germans were quite young recruits on their first outing with no experience. I also suspect the Brits did not have the 1908s and thus were better equipped for the melee that occured.

mteuthof · 11th August 2020, 06:01 PM

Thanks for all your reactions! I will make pics of the stamps on the sword and scabbard tomorrow.

6th August 2020, 12:38 PM	#1
mteuthof Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 9	Italian or Austrian saber? Good afternoon everyone, Can anyone help me with the origin and date of this saber? I think it is Italian or Austrian but I am not sure. Thanks in advance for your help. Attached Images

6th August 2020, 07:54 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Italian sabres of late 19c with bowl guards like that would have an indent for the thumb along the spine. Austrian ones had 2 parallel narrow cut-outs in the front of the bowl guard possibly for a sword knot. Your scabbard with the two fixed rings is quite British & late 19c, the grip leather/wire looks like a replacement. Possible private purchase? Issue swords usually if not always has a slot in the guard near the pommel for a sword knot. The tassled cord looped it the scabbard ring looks like a drapery tie-back & not military. The scabbard also looks like it was re-issued to a different regiment after the original had had them replaced with newer models. (it also appears to be missing the short slotted head screw that secures the scabbard throat, you may want to replace that.) - Oddly, naval sword specs did NOT ever call for a sword knot slot on naval enlisted cutlass patterns, only officers and warrants rated a sword knot. However, they - the cutlasses - were obtained thru the army ordinance department, all army officers, and they had a inflexible rule that all swords HAD to have a slot for a sword knot, so the navy got them in spite of their objections. Logistics were a bit convoluted back then and were distinctly "We've done it this way for 300 years, and we'll keep doing it that way for the next 300". Last edited by kronckew; 6th August 2020 at 08:12 PM.

6th August 2020, 10:59 PM	#4
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	The scabbard looks like a genuine, British 1908 pattern cavalry troopers'. The sword blade also looks like a 1908 cavalry troopers'. The hilt has some features of the British 1897 infantry officers pattern, but without any cut-outs. The grip is at best a replacement, but it may be that the sword is some sort of modern reproduction. Are there any stamps on it anywhere? Below is my 1908 pattern cavalry troopers' sword. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

6th August 2020, 06:00 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	It is certainly not Italian and not Austrian! I think it is British!

7th August 2020, 09:06 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Interesting info on the 1908 sword. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNY5p5h8eQ4 I'd always wanted a 1908 until I saw the comments on it. I DO have an Indian sabre like he mentioned with the 1796 style blade & 1821 style guard/grip, it handles even better than the 1796 and has a wider and thicker blade root. The Brits finally forced the Indian regement to use them, tho I gather they were still issued to Mountain troops (Khyber pass?) for quite a while after the others. I've read somewhere about the first engagement of UK and German cavalry in WW1 before the trenching started. A British cavalry troop charged a German Uhlan troop armed with lances, in the ensuing melee a number of German lancers were killed an the rest fled, persued by the Brits. The Germans hopped a barbed wire cattle fence while the Brits horses refused to jump it. Apparently the Germans were quite young recruits on their first outing with no experience. I also suspect the Brits did not have the 1908s and thus were better equipped for the melee that occured.

11th August 2020, 06:01 PM	#6
mteuthof Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 9	Thanks for all your reactions! I will make pics of the stamps on the sword and scabbard tomorrow.