Sundang and kampilan for comment

drac2k · 1st August 2014, 04:01 PM

I just picked these up a couple of weeks ago at an American Civil War show ; you never can tell what you can find at a show .

VANDOO · 1st August 2014, 05:22 PM

TWO VERY NICE ITEMS BOTH SHOWING A LOT OF AGE AND USE. THE SUDANG HAS A FEW UNIQUE FEATURES THE INSET IVORY AND THE CARVING ON THE BLADE.
THE KAMPILIAN HAS THE SHORTER WELL CARVED STYLE HANDLE WE HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH EXAMPLES FROM DAYAK PEOPLES AND BORNEO. IT IS A ESPECIALLY NICE ONE NOT NECESSARILY FROM BORNEO AS THE DAYAK RANGED OVER A WIDE AREA AND OFTEN WERE AFFILIATED WITH VARIOUS KINGDOMS AND GROUPS. WHAT IS THE EYE MADE OF A METAL COIN OR JUST WELL CARVED WOOD?
I WISH THEY WERE MINE (COLLECTORS ULTIMATE COMPLEMENT)

CharlesS · 1st August 2014, 08:19 PM

Interesting pieces! The blade of the sundang shows some interesting chiseling at the forte. The hilt appears to be a later replacement....OR ,perhaps, is a Malay version missing some of its rattan bands, as the pommel style seems to correspond more to Malay styles. The style of the scabbard reminds me of Yakan styles(a possible Borneo link).

The instant I saw the kampillan, like Vandoo, I immediately wondered if it might be from Borneo, with that shorter hilt and extensive carvings. But, did Borneo kampillans also have hand guards??? I am not sure.

At first glance I would not be surprised to find that both these pieces came from Borneo.

I am curious what others have to say about them.

mross · 1st August 2014, 08:19 PM

Have you checked the Kris to see if it is a twist core? Looks like a strong possibility.

drac2k · 1st August 2014, 08:31 PM

Thanks for the affirmation guys ; it is always a complement to hear positive reactions from the forum on recent purchases.
The medallion on the handle is carved from wood and I don't believe that the blade is twist core .

Sajen · 2nd August 2014, 12:40 PM

Two beautiful pieces!

The kris has a very unusual blade shape, to bad that the scabbard is in such a bad state.
The mansala at the kampilan can give maybe a hint of the origin of the sword!?

Regards,
Detlef

Arete · 2nd August 2014, 01:26 PM

beautiful kris. The kampilan appears to be for a left handed man.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd August 2014, 01:58 PM

Has anyone picked up on the orientation of the kampy pommel, it is upside down to what is commonly known.

Sajen · 2nd August 2014, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Has anyone picked up on the orientation of the kampy pommel, it is upside down to what is commonly known.

Yes, you are correct!

CharlesS · 2nd August 2014, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Has anyone picked up on the orientation of the kampy pommel, it is upside down to what is commonly known.

Yes the blade upside down as to the norm. Wonder if we could get a shot of the area where the blade enters the hilt have a look at what's holding it in place.

Is the blade loose in the hilt by chance?

drac2k · 2nd August 2014, 08:37 PM

The blade is super tight ; no wiggle or looseness at all .I'll negotiate with my photographer (my wife), and hopefully I'll have a picture by tomorrow .

Gavin Nugent · 3rd August 2014, 12:19 AM

I'd say the break is under the material at the centre of the grip and put back together incorrectly.

drac2k · 3rd August 2014, 07:47 AM

Well.... unless I have the rarest Kampillan in the world, the only one with the pommel facing in the opposite direction, I'd have to admit that you are probably on the right track. The blade is straight and true, and can not be removed (I don't think), without destroying the handle,for it is set in very firmly ;if the blade was broken, then I don't think it would have aligned as correctly or logically break at it's strongest point(under the handle). I think the whole blade probably came out, and a collector did a great job of reinserting it, unfortunately backwards.

Sajen · 3rd August 2014, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Well.... unless I have the rarest Kampillan in the world, the only one with the pommel facing in the opposite direction, I'd have to admit that you are probably on the right track.

Not the only one. Not long ago there was a kampilan listed by ebay where the blade also has been upside down. Unfortunately I haven't saved the pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

CharlesS · 3rd August 2014, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Well.... unless I have the rarest Kampillan in the world, the only one with the pommel facing in the opposite direction, I'd have to admit that you are probably on the right track. The blade is straight and true, and can not be removed (I don't think), without destroying the handle,for it is set in very firmly ;if the blade was broken, then I don't think it would have aligned as correctly or logically break at it's strongest point(under the handle). I think the whole blade probably came out, and a collector did a great job of reinserting it, unfortunately backwards.

I think both you and Gavin are spot on here. It's a shame, but not the end of the world. A swordsmith could heat the blade, remove and remount it, but I'd carefully consider that decision.

drac2k · 3rd August 2014, 04:07 PM

Do you know of any swordsmiths that do this type of work stateside ? If they are anything like the gunsmiths I've encountered, they will have your items for 2 or 3 years and you will have to beg them for your stuff back and pay a king's ransom !
What holds the sword blade in place other than pitch ;I don't think this one is pinned in.I was thinking of taking a dental tool and slowly, over the course of many days, try to remove the pitch from the top of the guard, and loosen the blade.
In the meantime, I'll put it with the rest of my kampillans(yes, I should have known better), with a mental note "lesson learned."

Sajen · 3rd August 2014, 04:22 PM

You also can carefully try to heat the blade to loosen it from the handle. For this you can use for example a candle. I have done this with several keris blades to loosen the handles.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 3rd August 2014, 05:57 PM

Thanks for the info ; is pitch the only thing that holds the blade in ? If so, it may be worth a try.The other worry I have is that the previous owner didn't use a pitch, but an epoxy.

Sajen · 3rd August 2014, 07:42 PM

I don't know if there is anything else which hold the handle at the blade, just try it, nothing worth can happen. Epoxy will also react by heat.

Best,
Detlef

CharlesS · 3rd August 2014, 07:49 PM

Drac2k,

I have sent you a pm.

ward · 3rd August 2014, 07:52 PM

Looking at how the blade goes in the handle I think Gavin and Charles are right, it's the pommel that was flipped not the whole hilt. That's why there is that band on the grip. You don't need to take the handle off just get under the band carefully and see what was done. Expect epoxy, if you're lucky maybe just white glue

Nirghosa · 6th August 2014, 04:27 AM

yours isn't the only one, I got one off ebay some year ago as well with the handle incorrect. Guard was correct but no handle. Fortunately my teacher is a smith and was able to carefully help me "knock" it loose. It seriously looked like they had used modelers cement at one time

drac2k · 6th August 2014, 01:20 PM

A member of the forum was good enough to give me the name of a swordsmith and as such, the blade is on it's way to California ; if this works out, he will be receiving a suitcase of "projects," to work on .

Gavin Nugent · 7th August 2014, 03:45 PM

Hi Drac2k

These Kampilans are quite simple in there manufacture.
The grip and pommel is a separate piece of timber from the guard and they are typically pinned with a single pin mid way through the grip.

I'd say the pin perhaps rusted through or was removed/fell out after the rattan binding wore through and was just reassembled incorrectly at the time.

A simple thing to reverse and rebind correctly.

drac2k · 7th August 2014, 06:49 PM

Thanks for the advice, but I'm not sure how "simple," the fix would be and I don't possess the skill set for the binding.If the sword were loose, I might have tried , but it is tight as a drum !
I have found that 2 phrases in the English language usually cause me great regret :
"don't worry, it's simple, you can do it," and "don't worry, it won't cost you anything."

1st August 2014, 04:01 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Sundang and kampilan for comment I just picked these up a couple of weeks ago at an American Civil War show ; you never can tell what you can find at a show . Attached Images

1st August 2014, 05:22 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TWO VERY NICE ITEMS BOTH SHOWING A LOT OF AGE AND USE. THE SUDANG HAS A FEW UNIQUE FEATURES THE INSET IVORY AND THE CARVING ON THE BLADE. THE KAMPILIAN HAS THE SHORTER WELL CARVED STYLE HANDLE WE HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH EXAMPLES FROM DAYAK PEOPLES AND BORNEO. IT IS A ESPECIALLY NICE ONE NOT NECESSARILY FROM BORNEO AS THE DAYAK RANGED OVER A WIDE AREA AND OFTEN WERE AFFILIATED WITH VARIOUS KINGDOMS AND GROUPS. WHAT IS THE EYE MADE OF A METAL COIN OR JUST WELL CARVED WOOD? I WISH THEY WERE MINE (COLLECTORS ULTIMATE COMPLEMENT)

1st August 2014, 08:19 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Interesting pieces! The blade of the sundang shows some interesting chiseling at the forte. The hilt appears to be a later replacement....OR ,perhaps, is a Malay version missing some of its rattan bands, as the pommel style seems to correspond more to Malay styles. The style of the scabbard reminds me of Yakan styles(a possible Borneo link). The instant I saw the kampillan, like Vandoo, I immediately wondered if it might be from Borneo, with that shorter hilt and extensive carvings. But, did Borneo kampillans also have hand guards??? I am not sure. At first glance I would not be surprised to find that both these pieces came from Borneo. I am curious what others have to say about them.

1st August 2014, 08:19 PM	#4
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Have you checked the Kris to see if it is a twist core? Looks like a strong possibility.

1st August 2014, 08:31 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks for the affirmation guys ; it is always a complement to hear positive reactions from the forum on recent purchases. The medallion on the handle is carved from wood and I don't believe that the blade is twist core .

2nd August 2014, 12:40 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	Two beautiful pieces! The kris has a very unusual blade shape, to bad that the scabbard is in such a bad state. The mansala at the kampilan can give maybe a hint of the origin of the sword!? Regards, Detlef

2nd August 2014, 01:26 PM	#7
Arete Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 10	beautiful kris. The kampilan appears to be for a left handed man.

2nd August 2014, 01:58 PM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Has anyone picked up on the orientation of the kampy pommel, it is upside down to what is commonly known.

2nd August 2014, 08:37 PM	#11
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	The blade is super tight ; no wiggle or looseness at all .I'll negotiate with my photographer (my wife), and hopefully I'll have a picture by tomorrow .

3rd August 2014, 12:19 AM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I'd say the break is under the material at the centre of the grip and put back together incorrectly.

3rd August 2014, 07:47 AM	#13
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Well.... unless I have the rarest Kampillan in the world, the only one with the pommel facing in the opposite direction, I'd have to admit that you are probably on the right track. The blade is straight and true, and can not be removed (I don't think), without destroying the handle,for it is set in very firmly ;if the blade was broken, then I don't think it would have aligned as correctly or logically break at it's strongest point(under the handle). I think the whole blade probably came out, and a collector did a great job of reinserting it, unfortunately backwards.

3rd August 2014, 04:07 PM	#16
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Do you know of any swordsmiths that do this type of work stateside ? If they are anything like the gunsmiths I've encountered, they will have your items for 2 or 3 years and you will have to beg them for your stuff back and pay a king's ransom ! What holds the sword blade in place other than pitch ;I don't think this one is pinned in.I was thinking of taking a dental tool and slowly, over the course of many days, try to remove the pitch from the top of the guard, and loosen the blade. In the meantime, I'll put it with the rest of my kampillans(yes, I should have known better), with a mental note "lesson learned."

3rd August 2014, 04:22 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	You also can carefully try to heat the blade to loosen it from the handle. For this you can use for example a candle. I have done this with several keris blades to loosen the handles. Regards, Detlef

3rd August 2014, 05:57 PM	#18
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks for the info ; is pitch the only thing that holds the blade in ? If so, it may be worth a try.The other worry I have is that the previous owner didn't use a pitch, but an epoxy.

3rd August 2014, 07:42 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,783	I don't know if there is anything else which hold the handle at the blade, just try it, nothing worth can happen. Epoxy will also react by heat. Best, Detlef

3rd August 2014, 07:49 PM	#20
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Drac2k, I have sent you a pm.

3rd August 2014, 07:52 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Looking at how the blade goes in the handle I think Gavin and Charles are right, it's the pommel that was flipped not the whole hilt. That's why there is that band on the grip. You don't need to take the handle off just get under the band carefully and see what was done. Expect epoxy, if you're lucky maybe just white glue

6th August 2014, 04:27 AM	#22
Nirghosa Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	yours isn't the only one, I got one off ebay some year ago as well with the handle incorrect. Guard was correct but no handle. Fortunately my teacher is a smith and was able to carefully help me "knock" it loose. It seriously looked like they had used modelers cement at one time

6th August 2014, 01:20 PM	#23
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	A member of the forum was good enough to give me the name of a swordsmith and as such, the blade is on it's way to California ; if this works out, he will be receiving a suitcase of "projects," to work on .

7th August 2014, 03:45 PM	#24
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Drac2k These Kampilans are quite simple in there manufacture. The grip and pommel is a separate piece of timber from the guard and they are typically pinned with a single pin mid way through the grip. I'd say the pin perhaps rusted through or was removed/fell out after the rattan binding wore through and was just reassembled incorrectly at the time. A simple thing to reverse and rebind correctly.

7th August 2014, 06:49 PM	#25
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks for the advice, but I'm not sure how "simple," the fix would be and I don't possess the skill set for the binding.If the sword were loose, I might have tried , but it is tight as a drum ! I have found that 2 phrases in the English language usually cause me great regret : "don't worry, it's simple, you can do it," and "don't worry, it won't cost you anything."