keris origin

GIO · 25th September 2019, 07:53 PM

Would it be possible to identify the origin of this kris ? It has a rather disproportionate base part and an ULER LULUT pamor which made me suppose a Balinese origin. On the other hand overall size (35 cm or 14 inch) leads me towards Java. Sorry for the bad pic. I am trying to etch the blade.
Thanks in advance for your help

GIO · 25th September 2019, 08:07 PM

Photo follows

GIO · 26th September 2019, 02:45 AM

Here it is

Jean · 26th September 2019, 09:38 AM

Not Balinese IMO but rather S... The shape with the protruding ganja and 7 or 9 very shallow waves is typical.

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2019, 10:19 AM

It might be the camera angle Jean, but from what I can see I doubt that this keris is classifiable as Segaluh, the blumbangan does not appear to be wide enough, the pesi is insufficiently central. But I would tend to agree with Sunda/West Jawa.

Jean · 26th September 2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It might be the camera angle Jean, but from what I can see I doubt that this keris is classifiable as Segaluh, the blumbangan does not appear to be wide enough, the pesi is insufficiently central. But I would tend to agree with Sunda/West Jawa.

Thank you Alan and I agree with Sunda/ West Java (the land of origin of Segaluh), but do you refer to my blade or the one from Gio?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2019, 10:52 PM

GIO's keris Jean, your's is definitely Segaluh.

Jean · 27th September 2019, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

GIO's keris Jean, your's is definitely Segaluh.

Thank you Alan. I feel amazed that this type of blade with such a complex pamor could be attributed to a tangguh linked to a 12th century period, but we know that it is irrelevant.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2019, 02:00 PM

Well Jean, it probably depends upon the way in which we approach this idea of "tangguh".

I was taught by a man whom I, and many others, accepted as a master of the art of keris classification, and what I was taught was that if a keris was able to be truly given any specific tangguh, that tangguh was without doubt attached to the historic era, or the location, that was associated with the name.

However, many people wish to believe that tangguh is always associated with the historical era, and conveniently forget that very often a location name and an era name are the same.

It is also very easy to forget that the word "tangguh" in this context of keris classification carries the meaning of opinion.

If somebody wishes to hold the opinion that this keris we are currently looking at is however many hundred years old, I'm not going to argue with him, its his opinion and he has a right to that opinion. I might try to alter the way in which he has arrived at that opinion, but his opinion, whatever it may be, is his, and he has every right to cherish it.

Incidentally, I don't think I would call this a complex pamor, it is actually very simple and easily produced, it is just surface manipulation.

Jean · 27th September 2019, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If somebody wishes to hold the opinion that this keris we are currently looking at is however many hundred years old, I'm not going to argue with him, its his opinion and he has a right to that opinion. I might try to alter the way in which he has arrived at that opinion, but his opinion, whatever it may be, is his, and he has every right to cherish it.

Hello Alan,
Although this is a difficult if not impossible question, may I ask you your best personal guess about the age range of these 2 blades from the pics?
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2019, 10:45 PM

From photos Jean, and not knowing anything else?

Sorry, I'm not that good.

GIO · 28th September 2019, 04:16 PM

Many thanks, Jean and Alan, for the kind and complete explanation. And yes, I find my keris very similar to Jean's for what dapur is concerned. I suppose, as said in my opening post, that such pamor is not so common on West-Javanese blades. Once the etching is complete - and successful !- shall post pics.

Jean · 28th September 2019, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Many thanks, Jean and Alan, for the kind and complete explanation. And yes, I find my keris very similar to Jean's for what dapur is concerned. I suppose, as said in my opening post, that such pamor is not so common on West-Javanese blades. Once the etching is complete - and successful !- shall post pics.

Hello Gio,
I also got this one in my collection with a dapur more similar to yours but which is more recent I think.
Regards

GIO · 30th September 2019, 10:28 AM

Hi Jean
here a better pic of my keris, if it may help

25th September 2019, 07:53 PM	#1
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	keris origin Would it be possible to identify the origin of this kris ? It has a rather disproportionate base part and an ULER LULUT pamor which made me suppose a Balinese origin. On the other hand overall size (35 cm or 14 inch) leads me towards Java. Sorry for the bad pic. I am trying to etch the blade. Thanks in advance for your help

25th September 2019, 08:07 PM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Keris origin Photo follows

26th September 2019, 02:45 AM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Here it is Attached Images

26th September 2019, 09:38 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Not Balinese IMO but rather S... The shape with the protruding ganja and 7 or 9 very shallow waves is typical. Attached Images

30th September 2019, 10:28 AM	#14
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Hi Jean here a better pic of my keris, if it may help Attached Images

26th September 2019, 10:19 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It might be the camera angle Jean, but from what I can see I doubt that this keris is classifiable as Segaluh, the blumbangan does not appear to be wide enough, the pesi is insufficiently central. But I would tend to agree with Sunda/West Jawa.

26th September 2019, 10:52 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	GIO's keris Jean, your's is definitely Segaluh.

27th September 2019, 02:00 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Well Jean, it probably depends upon the way in which we approach this idea of "tangguh". I was taught by a man whom I, and many others, accepted as a master of the art of keris classification, and what I was taught was that if a keris was able to be truly given any specific tangguh, that tangguh was without doubt attached to the historic era, or the location, that was associated with the name. However, many people wish to believe that tangguh is always associated with the historical era, and conveniently forget that very often a location name and an era name are the same. It is also very easy to forget that the word "tangguh" in this context of keris classification carries the meaning of opinion. If somebody wishes to hold the opinion that this keris we are currently looking at is however many hundred years old, I'm not going to argue with him, its his opinion and he has a right to that opinion. I might try to alter the way in which he has arrived at that opinion, but his opinion, whatever it may be, is his, and he has every right to cherish it. Incidentally, I don't think I would call this a complex pamor, it is actually very simple and easily produced, it is just surface manipulation.

27th September 2019, 10:45 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	From photos Jean, and not knowing anything else? Sorry, I'm not that good.

28th September 2019, 04:16 PM	#12
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Many thanks, Jean and Alan, for the kind and complete explanation. And yes, I find my keris very similar to Jean's for what dapur is concerned. I suppose, as said in my opening post, that such pamor is not so common on West-Javanese blades. Once the etching is complete - and successful !- shall post pics.