Two-Handed Great Sword

[dana_w]

I inherited this sword from my father two years ago. He believe that it dated from the early 16th century. Some people have told me it is a ceremonial sword, others say it's Victorian era copy. Nobody seems to like the looks of the triangular flukes or how close they are to the guard. Any ideas?

Below the guard on one side is the Coat of Arms of the Visconti of Milan. It depicts the Biscione, a serpent who appears to be swallowing a human, but is actually giving birth to it. On the other side is a St. George Cross.

Overall Length 63 inches
Handle 15 inches long
Guard 14 inches wide
Blade 48 inches long
Weight 5 pounds (approx)

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Dana
If you don't mind, we will move this thread to the European Armoury section, where in principle you will find (more) members dedicated to your sword's area.

[dana_w]

Thanks Fernando!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
This is a most interesting example of the two hand sword, and extremely attractive. It is not a 'Victorian' copy and the ceremonial term is broadly interpreted.This sword does seem to be quite well made with an apparant degree of age, and with the heraldic motifs as well as style it does seem quite possible to be a guards weapon most likely from Milan. As you have well noted the serpent is indeed the biscione (Milanese 'bissa')which is the heraldic emblem of the Visconti family. The cross in the shield is actually the coat of arms of Milan, and is known as the cross of St. Ambrose.

The two hander swords were of course used by German and Swiss landsknechts usually by the doppelsoldners, specialized swordsmen in the combat involving pikes and placed in front lines against these. After initial contact and as battle became closely engaged melee these huge swords were of little use, but were key in breaking through and destroying these deadly pikes. By the mid 16th century these were largely discontinued as combat weapons, but did become highly symbolic and visible in guard situations as well as in certain degree ceremonial.
The structure and elements of this sword seem well made enough for such purposes, and it does not appear to be a combat weapon. The flukes as noted are a bit unusual as they are a bit heavy, almost rudimentary in shape and are placed vestigially high on the blade near the ricasso and guard system, certainly not as on the earlier swords. Most of these seem to have typically had ring type guards rather than this basket type, and examples of the German and Swiss combat forms of 16th century seem to have had no ricasso on blade.

The pommel is faithfully represented, and appears to be of c. 1615-30 (AVB Norman, "Rapier and Smallsword" , 1980, p.257, #38) a truncated cone tapering toward tip with longitudinal flutes and prominant capstan. In examples of these two hand swords from Italy (Boccia & Coelho, 582-584) these are termed 'spadoni a due mani' and shown as c. 1600-10, with #583 having the same type pommel. The flukes on these are smaller and almost toothlike, while on others these are slightly larger but downward turned lunettes. The hilts are of similar form and some with the central rib bisecting the grip. These are quite finely made and not with the spiral wood grip, which suggests a later probably ceremonial guard type weapon.

I would say this, with these heraldic emblems and representations of features in the style of earlier weapons of these forms, it may be of 18th century or early 19th and from Milan. Certainly worthy of further and more detailed research, there are many possibilities given the complexity of geopolitical circumstances of these times and well into the 19th c. in Italy.


All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

A rather elegant sword you got there, Dana.
You are right in that the flukes are too close from the guard, thus prevent the user from the option of holding the sword by the ricasso whith one of the hands, a typical feature in these swords.
I follow Jim's thought on its age. It looks like the biscione is not so aged. However, Jim ... this being an early XIX century replica, how do you distinguish its difference from a Victorian copy, when its period is about the same ... or not ?
Is it that i didn't quite understand the contents of your post ?

[dana_w]

Hi Jim,

Right now I am in new user purgatory, so my return posts will be delayed a bit.

Thanks for your comments. You have contributed some very useful information. I will update my notes, and research the cross of St. Ambrose. Maybe I can find a copy of the books you mentioned too. Do you have any tips on where to begin a more “detailed research”. The geopolitics of 18th and 19th Italy are (just a little) outside of my scope.

My father was a friend of Joe Kindig Jr (http://www.kindigrifles.com/legacy.html) and purchased the sword from him in the late 50s or early 60s. The cross guard looks much shorter than the handle in the photos, but it is an optical illusion. They are almost the same length. In hand the sword feels well balanced.

Fernando posted some photos of a ceremonial montante from the Lisbon Military Museum. It too has unusual flukes close to a basket type guard.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=13

Thanks again,
Dana

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather elegant sword you got there, Dana.
You are right in that the flukes are too close from the guard, thus prevent the user from the option of holding the sword by the ricasso whith one of the hands, a typical feature in these swords.
I follow Jim's thought on its age. It looks like the biscione is not so aged. However, Jim ... this being an early XIX century replica, how do you distinguish its difference from a Victorian copy, when its period is about the same ... or not ?
Is it that i didn't quite understand the contents of your post ?

Thank you Fernando, and actually by the time I wrote this it was late and I did not reread my text effectively enough. I have always thought of the period term 'Victorian' as a British description as Queen Victoria reigned from 1837-1901, and have not regarded other European kingdoms and city states or principalities as of that character. However it is true that the British fascination with copied arms and armour often included the outstanding work of Ernst Schmitt of Munich and there were quite likely other European ateliers as well.
I had thought of the early 19th century in assessing approximate age of this sword in terms of much of Northern Italy at that time having largely Napoleonic perspective. It seems I had not reached enough perspective in the research I had been doing before writing to adequately address that potential.
In these times in Italy and well into the 19th century up to the unification there was of course a great deal of nationalistic fervor and I believe that Napoleon had created Milan as a capital of these northern regions. Im not sure just how this kind of apparantly commemorative weapon might have been created for palacial guards or other official capacities in this rather turbulent period but seems worth looking into. As always, I look forward to other views on this.

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

herewith my opinion requested by Fernando

I think that 99% of sword specialists will attribute this sword as a later reproduction.
Vicorian era or perhaps even later in the 20th century .

obviously given the fact that some unusual design features can be seen on this sword;
- Parry hooks of a less common shape and too? close to the cross.
- A cross counter guard which does not allow ricasso grasping.
- A uncommon spiral-cut grip.

This in combination with the Visconti coat of arms and st George cross make the twohander a stranger between the known.

my personal opinion and I'm fully aware that not many, probably none, will agree with me, is that this is an original processional sword from the last quarter of the 17th century, Italian and used (not necessarily made) in Milan.
My free- speculation is that this sword could be from the guard of Federico Visconti (1617-1693), he was an Italian Cardinal and Archbishop of Milan from 1681 to 1693.
This is pure speculation and ofcourse difficult to evidence.

I think it is in any case a very beautiful sword.

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... Fernando posted some photos of a ceremonial montante from the Lisbon Military Museum. It too has unusual flukes close to a basket type guard...

You are right Dana,
I was only reasoning as to give consistency to your mentioning that nobody likes the flukes positioning.
The sword you point out at the Mlitary Museum, Vasco da Gama 'ceremonial' montante, is a different variation in that, there is a portion of ricasso after the flukes, to possibilitate for handling ... a bit like the half sword styling, if i may say so.

I thank Cornelistromp for coming in with his opinion, which undoubtedly has a far more considerable knowledge in this area.
... and i too reiterate that your sword is extremely appealing.

.

[dana_w]

Thanks for the info Cornelistromp, Jim McDougall, and Fernando. I'm glad you like the sword.

I'll take a look at Fedrico Visconti today. I have been reading about The Visconti Castle / St. Vitus.

http://www.castelloviscontidisanvito.it/cvisconti.html

The Visconti rule in Milan seems to have ended with the death of Filippo Maria Visconti in 1447. He was the last direct male descendant of Ottone Visconti (?).

The heraldic motif of the biscione is in wide use today. For example, the city of Milan, the Alfa Romeo Logo, and even the Inter Milan Football Club. There is a lively debate on whether the snake is swallowing or giving birth, and whether a man or a child is depicted. The origin of the biscione has been attributed to the arms of a Saracen warrior. This warrior was supposedly killed by Ottone Visconti during the crusades, Ottone then adopted the the symbol. Another version has Ottone killing an enormous snake that liked to eat children. The snake is said to have lived in lake Gerundo near Milan. Nothing survives of Lake Gerundo today.

Fernando, It looks like you are a moderator, can you help me get out of "new user purgatory" so that I can send private messages?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
Thank you for your kind response, and the two books I mentioned, the one by Boccia & Coelho included ("Armi Bianci Italiene") included, are rather hard to find and enormously expensive and I dont believe have enough data specific to this sword to warrant such expense. As for research on these arms in general they are priceless!
In my comments I noted that I felt the sword was likely ceremonial in probably a guards sword of possibly early 19th and slightly earlier, but quite honestly was uncomfortable with the idea of too much earlier in the 18th c. without knowing more on this topic, despite sensing that might be the case.

Jasper has perfectly assessed this and I very much agree with his speculation, as well as this being a processional sword, a capacity I had overlooked. Much as with heading type swords as bearing swords used as symbols of authority in various city states, kingdoms and other principalities, these huge swords were most visually impressive.
I agree also the sword was not necessarily made in Milan, but it does certainly as I noted carry certain elemental features of some of these swords made in Italy, and included representationally.

The best place to begin searching more detailed information is online, but using Wikipedia with caution as a benchmark to find key words, names and references that you can substantiate further with online searches. The information Jasper has provided already is quite soundly placed.

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

in addition of post# 8, an image of Federico Visconti after a painting by Bernardino Baldi, Rijksmuseum Amsterdam.(RM#82048)

the arms of the Visconti in combination with the cross.

best,

[dana_w]

Thank you for the images cornelistromp.

[Matt Easton]

A very interesting sword. At first sight I also thought it was a later processional weapon, but I think that given the balance of evidence and some of the details of the design, it may very well be an honest 17thC weapon. Perhaps with a later replacement grip (this is not uncommon - most 17th century weapons in museums have replacement grips!).

I have to throw in a bit of correction as to people's views of these weapons - these were guards' weapons at this time and in fact the use of the greatsword was still very widespread in Italian, Spanish and Portugese fencing schools right up until the end of the 17th century - the 'spadone' (Italian greatsword) is covered by Alfieri's teachings in the 1640's for example, and various 'montante' (Spanish greatsword) texts have come to light in recent years. The Iberian treatises make it very clear that the primary purpose of these swords was so that one guard could defend a bridge, street or doorway from a number of opponents, presumably whilst support was called or his prince made a speedy exit! Whilst they were apparently opposed to pikes on the battlefield in some cases, this does not seem to have been their primary purpose.

The next point I want to make is about the projecting spikes on the ricasso - these were NOT primarily to allow halfswording. You can halfsword with any sword and it is shown in numerous earlier treatises dealing with longswords, messers and even rapiers. What these projections were for was to give added protection to the hands when binding against an opponent's blade - the extra length and force of two-handed sword blades puts the hands at terrible risk (Henry VIII's officials noted that no gauntlets could properly protect from them) and so these projections are forged on the blade to help prevent the opponent's blade sliding down and taking a chunk out of your hand. There are many examples of greatswords with these projections near the hilt, not least those swords shown in Marozzo's treatise of 1536:



Anyway, I hope this is helpful and thanks for sharing the photos of that sword. It's a very interesting piece.

[fernando]

Thank you so much for the corrections, Matt.
My experience of reading about 'montantes', a term also used by Portuguese, comes from reading chronicles of the discoveries period, where this type of sword was used in Asia to clear the path in battle, handled by well trained nobility who mainly fought in front of their horde.
I have tried to give my mentioning ... a bit like the half sword styling, if i may say so. a figurative sense ... but i see that it was an unfortunate approach. On the other hand, i was perfectly convinced that the spikes were to propect the user's hand when (?) holding the sword by the ricasso. I stand corrected; will have to adjust my perspective on this one.

[Matt Easton]

Thanks Fernando - I should add that in fact Marozzo does show halfswording with the ricasso being gripped (so it was done), but I think that this was not the primary purpose of these projections, because they seem to have developed from the flarred ricasso found on 15th century fencing longswords and in quite a lot of 16th-17th century examples it is not really practical to hold the ricasso because of the guard rings being in the way (or the spikes being too close to the hilt, as here).
Regards,
Matt

[dana_w]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for joining the discussion, and for your well informed comments.

I read an essay that you wrote on the Rondel Dagger earlier this year. It was very helpful.

Dana

[Matt Easton]

You're welcome Dana,

See these examples of Italian spadoni from treatises:



Note the triangular shape of the projections, like yours - quite different to the more claw-like projections on German and Swiss greatswords.

A large Venetian example:


And if we want to look at Greatswords with these projections close to the hilt, check out this Brunswick state sword from 1573:



Regards,
Matt

[dana_w]

Wonderful Matt, that info will help me with some of the critics.