bayonet collectors help?

Tim Simmons · 30th May 2010, 07:06 PM

I might be going round in circles with this idea. Look at these bayonet inspired knives/daggers. I recently received the Lebel bayonet as a match for the French West African bayonet inspired dagger. As you can see it is very closely observed. As is the item in this link-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Fabulous

The question I ask is, any idea for the inspiration for the other bayonet dagger?

I was looking at the British 1907 pattern bayonet before the removal of the quillon. But as these seem very closely observed I feel the 1907 blade is too long and the quillon not the right sort of curve. If a good possible match for inspiration is found it may help point to which area of Africa it could come from.

Vaarok · 31st May 2010, 03:02 AM

Actually, the ball-tipped crossguard on the second (white handled) blade more closely resembles the Turkish 1903 quillback bayonet, but I agree the longer one appears a native blade in the style of a "Rosalie" 1886 bayonet, or the Mle 92 Berthier Carbine Bayonet.

Really, when you talk about handcrafted blades, there's a lot of stylistic license involved, so it could be either, or an amalgam of both.

HA, look at me, the mass-produced-blades guy, finally being sorta-relevant and helpful!

Tim Simmons · 31st May 2010, 10:48 AM

You have indeed been most helpful. I dare to call myself a sculptor

and even allowing artistic licence. It is no surprise to me that the possible inspiration for this piece can seen. I have been able to nab these pictures of Turkish bayonets . There is a Belgian bayonet that is also a reason able match. I feel the Turkish bayonet has a definite chance especially After research. I have always felt this is West African work. The Ottoman army fought in North Africa, Libya, Sahara and into French west Africa. The Ottoman army was obviously in Egypt and the Sudan and I believe units in German East Africa. However I am not an expert and the item does not seen East African. I strongly suspect that it is from the regions around the borders of French West Africa and the Sahara of North Africa if that makes sense.

Tim Simmons · 31st May 2010, 04:20 PM

Niger and Chad would be French areas bordering south west Libya where the Turks were in action.

Vaarok · 31st May 2010, 11:40 PM

Just to be fussy, the photos posted of Turk bayonets are of the 1935 reworked, ten-inch blades. The original Turkish 1903 blades were "quillback" like the German S98, and featured a stiffening rib like the shaft of a feather in addition to the fuller, with part of the blade edge protruding above that shaft like a dorsal fin on the latter third of the blade. That tip shape might, interpretively, tie in with the diamond-shaped tip on the dagger you posted.

Tim Simmons · 1st June 2010, 11:53 AM

Vaarok again very helpful. What interested me about this the pictures I posted is the shape of the bend in the forward sweeping quillon. I also like the idea of the white metal pommel. This link if it works, shows a shortened earlier version that appears to have had the quillon removed. Could be that there are many variants. The fin like blade could explain the shape of the African knife. It is all good fun learning about bayonets.

http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/turk90a.htm

This link is also worth looking at, note the curve to the quillon?

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Bayonets.html#Turkey

Tim Simmons · 21st October 2012, 11:34 AM

This ended on USA ebay 8th Oct. Interesting? Appears to have seem more use than a souvenir? I had a long steel dagger with the same form of scabbard.

AJ1356 · 21st October 2012, 05:14 PM

The top one seems to be from a french LeBelle. I think that is how it is spelled.

not2sharp · 5th November 2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This ended on USA ebay 8th Oct. Interesting? Appears to have seem more use than a souvenir? I had a long steel dagger with the same form of scabbard.

It looks somewhat like the Spanish puntilla dagger used in bullfighting.

n2s

Lew · 5th November 2012, 09:35 PM

Ok guys you had your fun. Bayonets are mass produced military by nature and since most of the examples are post 1900 and not really ethnographic in nature I'm going to close this thread.

30th May 2010, 07:06 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	bayonet collectors help? I might be going round in circles with this idea. Look at these bayonet inspired knives/daggers. I recently received the Lebel bayonet as a match for the French West African bayonet inspired dagger. As you can see it is very closely observed. As is the item in this link- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Fabulous The question I ask is, any idea for the inspiration for the other bayonet dagger? I was looking at the British 1907 pattern bayonet before the removal of the quillon. But as these seem very closely observed I feel the 1907 blade is too long and the quillon not the right sort of curve. If a good possible match for inspiration is found it may help point to which area of Africa it could come from. Attached Images

31st May 2010, 10:48 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	You have indeed been most helpful. I dare to call myself a sculptor and even allowing artistic licence. It is no surprise to me that the possible inspiration for this piece can seen. I have been able to nab these pictures of Turkish bayonets . There is a Belgian bayonet that is also a reason able match. I feel the Turkish bayonet has a definite chance especially After research. I have always felt this is West African work. The Ottoman army fought in North Africa, Libya, Sahara and into French west Africa. The Ottoman army was obviously in Egypt and the Sudan and I believe units in German East Africa. However I am not an expert and the item does not seen East African. I strongly suspect that it is from the regions around the borders of French West Africa and the Sahara of North Africa if that makes sense. Attached Images

1st June 2010, 11:53 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Vaarok again very helpful. What interested me about this the pictures I posted is the shape of the bend in the forward sweeping quillon. I also like the idea of the white metal pommel. This link if it works, shows a shortened earlier version that appears to have had the quillon removed. Could be that there are many variants. The fin like blade could explain the shape of the African knife. It is all good fun learning about bayonets. http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/turk90a.htm This link is also worth looking at, note the curve to the quillon? http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Bayonets.html#Turkey Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st June 2010 at 12:06 PM.

21st October 2012, 11:34 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This ended on USA ebay 8th Oct. Interesting? Appears to have seem more use than a souvenir? I had a long steel dagger with the same form of scabbard. Attached Images

31st May 2010, 03:02 AM	#2
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	Actually, the ball-tipped crossguard on the second (white handled) blade more closely resembles the Turkish 1903 quillback bayonet, but I agree the longer one appears a native blade in the style of a "Rosalie" 1886 bayonet, or the Mle 92 Berthier Carbine Bayonet. Really, when you talk about handcrafted blades, there's a lot of stylistic license involved, so it could be either, or an amalgam of both. HA, look at me, the mass-produced-blades guy, finally being sorta-relevant and helpful!

31st May 2010, 04:20 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Niger and Chad would be French areas bordering south west Libya where the Turks were in action.

31st May 2010, 11:40 PM	#5
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	Just to be fussy, the photos posted of Turk bayonets are of the 1935 reworked, ten-inch blades. The original Turkish 1903 blades were "quillback" like the German S98, and featured a stiffening rib like the shaft of a feather in addition to the fuller, with part of the blade edge protruding above that shaft like a dorsal fin on the latter third of the blade. That tip shape might, interpretively, tie in with the diamond-shaped tip on the dagger you posted.

21st October 2012, 05:14 PM	#8
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	The top one seems to be from a french LeBelle. I think that is how it is spelled.

5th November 2012, 09:35 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ok guys you had your fun. Bayonets are mass produced military by nature and since most of the examples are post 1900 and not really ethnographic in nature I'm going to close this thread.