Mughal Armor- Can it be genuine?

rand · 1st August 2007, 03:23 AM

This Indo Persian armor just closed on Ebay:

#300134374661

Here is a link to the makers 2001 online listing

http://www.antiques.se/item/121.html

Pics of India Armor offered about four years ago by Russian in NY...

http://mughalarmor.blogspot.com/

You can see the liner was changed.......

I was surprised when this Seller offered this item for sale.....

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 1st August 2007, 06:12 PM

Hi Rand,
It is hard to say from the pictures, but they do look a lot alike, and the 'Buy it now' level sugests that any buyer is careful.

rand · 1st August 2007, 08:06 PM

Jens,

About four years ago a friend was in New York and offered this armor, I was asked to consult on it, the pics with the blue liner were emailed to me. At first I thought what a great piece, but with some research everything just did not add up and I found its Indian armor maker offering it for sale online. Have more pics somewhere of the current Indian armor maker that show the sides too, thats where its easiest to make a comparison. The asking price then was more than three times the "buy it now" on Ebay.

An original European influenced Mughal armor from the time of use like this would be very, very desirable.......

Whats interesting is how good this modern work is, for a display item it looks great. It even shows wear and oxidation, its easy to see how confusing this would be for someone. Sent an email asking the current price for these to satisfy my curiousity, will let you know when I get a reply.

The potential trajedy here is that it might be someones first piece to buy and end up souring them on collecting forever. From my point of view fellow collectors are a rare and valued commodity and should not be taken for granted.

Now there are so many copies of European swords I would not buy one unless it had provinence from a collection of 70years or more earlier, the fakes are just too good, especially on rapiers.

Forgers even buy medieval farming tools for the metal, reforge and make in old manner, so you even have occlussians in the metal.

A couple things I have not seen done by forgers are varying thickness's in metal on armor, varying areas and degrees of hardness of metal on armor.

With Islamic armor we do not have near this degree of a problem. But there are quite a few newly assembled pieces made from old elements, mostly in chain mail suits. Have no problem with assembled armor as long as it is represented as such and not as older mail. An unseasoned collector may can unknowingly pass on his mistakes......

Guess that is one of the many reasons this forum is so good!!! Look at how much access you have to information......

Here I go... rambling again...

But you gotta love our passion for arms and armor.....

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 1st August 2007, 10:59 PM

Rand, you are not rambling, you tell it as it is, and I am glad you do. There are a lot of copies made, of all kinds of weapons, and some of these copies are aged, not necessary by the maker but mostly by someone else, and this is a problem as the knowledge of aging has reached a high where you need to be a specialist, and to have the weapon in your hand to tell the difference – and even then some can be fooled.

I find your mail very interesting, and will read it again to morrow.

1st August 2007, 03:23 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Mughal Armor- Can it be genuine? This Indo Persian armor just closed on Ebay: #300134374661 Here is a link to the makers 2001 online listing http://www.antiques.se/item/121.html Pics of India Armor offered about four years ago by Russian in NY... http://mughalarmor.blogspot.com/ You can see the liner was changed....... I was surprised when this Seller offered this item for sale..... rand

1st August 2007, 06:12 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rand, It is hard to say from the pictures, but they do look a lot alike, and the 'Buy it now' level sugests that any buyer is careful.

1st August 2007, 08:06 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Mughal Armor Jens, About four years ago a friend was in New York and offered this armor, I was asked to consult on it, the pics with the blue liner were emailed to me. At first I thought what a great piece, but with some research everything just did not add up and I found its Indian armor maker offering it for sale online. Have more pics somewhere of the current Indian armor maker that show the sides too, thats where its easiest to make a comparison. The asking price then was more than three times the "buy it now" on Ebay. An original European influenced Mughal armor from the time of use like this would be very, very desirable....... Whats interesting is how good this modern work is, for a display item it looks great. It even shows wear and oxidation, its easy to see how confusing this would be for someone. Sent an email asking the current price for these to satisfy my curiousity, will let you know when I get a reply. The potential trajedy here is that it might be someones first piece to buy and end up souring them on collecting forever. From my point of view fellow collectors are a rare and valued commodity and should not be taken for granted. Now there are so many copies of European swords I would not buy one unless it had provinence from a collection of 70years or more earlier, the fakes are just too good, especially on rapiers. Forgers even buy medieval farming tools for the metal, reforge and make in old manner, so you even have occlussians in the metal. A couple things I have not seen done by forgers are varying thickness's in metal on armor, varying areas and degrees of hardness of metal on armor. With Islamic armor we do not have near this degree of a problem. But there are quite a few newly assembled pieces made from old elements, mostly in chain mail suits. Have no problem with assembled armor as long as it is represented as such and not as older mail. An unseasoned collector may can unknowingly pass on his mistakes...... Guess that is one of the many reasons this forum is so good!!! Look at how much access you have to information...... Here I go... rambling again... But you gotta love our passion for arms and armor..... rand

1st August 2007, 10:59 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rand, you are not rambling, you tell it as it is, and I am glad you do. There are a lot of copies made, of all kinds of weapons, and some of these copies are aged, not necessary by the maker but mostly by someone else, and this is a problem as the knowledge of aging has reached a high where you need to be a specialist, and to have the weapon in your hand to tell the difference – and even then some can be fooled. I find your mail very interesting, and will read it again to morrow.