Trabzon Sword

Norman McCormick · 22nd April 2008, 02:17 PM

Hi Guys,
Finally, after some fiscal negotiations with the seller, I went ahead and bought myself this wee sword. I'm particularly pleased that it appears to have its original baldric type sling attached to the scabbard. As far as the dating goes I'm afraid I'm not too hot but I think it equates to 1908/09, I hope someone will set me right. I've not seen this type of leatherwork on the mouth of a scabbard before seems designed to exclude the elements, a nice touch I think. Blade 16 inches, total 21 1/2 inches. As usual all comments and thoughts much appreciated.
Regards,
Norman.

Lew · 22nd April 2008, 04:26 PM

Hi Norman

That is a real nice example.

Congrats

Lew

katana · 22nd April 2008, 06:22 PM

Agreed, very nice......there appears to be patterning in the steel....is this caused by the forging or the finish applied.

Regards David

kronckew · 22nd April 2008, 07:53 PM

that is a really nice knife.

i'm drooling already.

Jeff D · 22nd April 2008, 08:48 PM

Hi Norman,

Very nice piece! the date on the blade is 1328 by the Maliyya calandar. That is roughly 1912 Gregorian.

All the best
Jeff

Norman McCormick · 22nd April 2008, 09:58 PM

Lew, Many thanks.
David, I'm pretty sure it's down to the finish.
Wayne, If you drool on me do I not rust!!!!!
Jeff, Thanks for the dating info.
Regards to all,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd April 2008, 12:03 AM

That is very nice Norman, I have never seen anything like it. For my own interest could you post larger images of the fuller arrangement and another of the markings near the hilt.

regards

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2008, 04:20 AM

This truly is a beauty! and most unusual. Interesting that the scabbard is similar to those found on.....dare I say it

the Black Sea knives!!!
A number of these are believed provenanced from Trebizon.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 23rd April 2008, 05:06 AM

I showed 2 of mine here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html
These are, indeed, Trabzon Surmenes and the complexity of their fullers is outstanding!
I read some of my comments and... blushed.
But... that's the price of acquiring knowledge: first, one has to be ignorant

kronckew · 23rd April 2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Wayne, If you drool on me do I not rust!!!!!
...

i drool mineral oil

Norman McCormick · 23rd April 2008, 07:48 PM

Dear All,
Many thanks for the appreciative comments. Gavin here are some more photos as requested. I have taken a better shot of the scabbard mouth, I haven't seen this before, is this the normal arrangement for scabbards on these weapons?
Wayne, have you thought of sinking a well, you could be worth a few quid !!!!!!
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 23rd April 2008, 08:03 PM

Hi Norman,

When you first mentioned the scabbard throat, I had assumed the leather had been cut to allow it to be folded and 'glued' to the inner surface (the 'cuts' allow the leather to overlap 'itself' , giving a neater finish. and that they had detached from the scabbard and needed 're-gluing'.
However, since the leather is 'scalloped' I now think that you are right, in that it appears to function as protection to the 'sheathed' blade. This I have not seen before.
I have seen 'raw' lambs wool fixed within the throat of some scabbards (but, not of this type of sword), this had the dual function of 'wiping the blade' as it was sheathed and coating it with lanolin....to help prevent rust.

Love the blade

Regards David

Norman McCormick · 24th April 2008, 02:05 PM

Ariel, I read with interest your link to a previous thread about these weapons. I noticed, on yours and others, that although the grips tend to be reasonably similar that there is quite a diversification in the blades not restricted to the fullers, which are mostly decorative and one would expect variations, but the blades seem to vary in shape considerably more than I would have expected for items with the same ethnographic background in time and place. From what I have been able to read these weapons don't occupy a great deal of time in history, late19th/early20th Century, is there a progression from start to finish in style e.g. simpler in the beginning and progressing to more complex shapes as time and taste advance or it may be that it is a regional variation . As it seems that a lot of these are dated it might not be too difficult to see if any links exists in the timeline of manufacture. Just a thought, nice pieces by the way.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 24th April 2008, 02:16 PM

David, I feel a bit silly I hadn't even thought about the leather being shaped to accomodate the shape of the throat when folded over, having said that if I tuck the leather into the scabbard throat it doesn't sit very well inside and I would have thought that someone that took the time to scallop the leather so neatly would have made a better job if the tags were to be glued inside the scabbard. I think I'm 50/50 on this, I can't see any evidence of glue either on the leather or the wooden surface inside the scabbard and the leather is quite secure right up to the lip of the scabbard mmmmm????? food for thought.
Regards,
Norman.

22nd April 2008, 02:17 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Trabzon Sword Hi Guys, Finally, after some fiscal negotiations with the seller, I went ahead and bought myself this wee sword. I'm particularly pleased that it appears to have its original baldric type sling attached to the scabbard. As far as the dating goes I'm afraid I'm not too hot but I think it equates to 1908/09, I hope someone will set me right. I've not seen this type of leatherwork on the mouth of a scabbard before seems designed to exclude the elements, a nice touch I think. Blade 16 inches, total 21 1/2 inches. As usual all comments and thoughts much appreciated. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

22nd April 2008, 06:22 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Agreed, very nice......there appears to be patterning in the steel....is this caused by the forging or the finish applied. Regards David Attached Images

22nd April 2008, 09:58 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Lew, Many thanks. David, I'm pretty sure it's down to the finish. Wayne, If you drool on me do I not rust!!!!! Jeff, Thanks for the dating info. Regards to all, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 22nd April 2008 at 10:10 PM.

23rd April 2008, 12:03 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Absolutely gorgeous That is very nice Norman, I have never seen anything like it. For my own interest could you post larger images of the fuller arrangement and another of the markings near the hilt. regards Gavin

23rd April 2008, 07:48 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Dear All, Many thanks for the appreciative comments. Gavin here are some more photos as requested. I have taken a better shot of the scabbard mouth, I haven't seen this before, is this the normal arrangement for scabbards on these weapons? Wayne, have you thought of sinking a well, you could be worth a few quid !!!!!! Regards, Norman. Attached Images

22nd April 2008, 04:26 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Norman That is a real nice example. Congrats Lew

22nd April 2008, 07:53 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	that is a really nice knife. i'm drooling already.

22nd April 2008, 08:48 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Norman, Very nice piece! the date on the blade is 1328 by the Maliyya calandar. That is roughly 1912 Gregorian. All the best Jeff

23rd April 2008, 04:20 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	This truly is a beauty! and most unusual. Interesting that the scabbard is similar to those found on.....dare I say it the Black Sea knives!!! A number of these are believed provenanced from Trebizon. Best regards, Jim

23rd April 2008, 05:06 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I showed 2 of mine here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html These are, indeed, Trabzon Surmenes and the complexity of their fullers is outstanding! I read some of my comments and... blushed. But... that's the price of acquiring knowledge: first, one has to be ignorant

23rd April 2008, 08:03 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Norman, When you first mentioned the scabbard throat, I had assumed the leather had been cut to allow it to be folded and 'glued' to the inner surface (the 'cuts' allow the leather to overlap 'itself' , giving a neater finish. and that they had detached from the scabbard and needed 're-gluing'. However, since the leather is 'scalloped' I now think that you are right, in that it appears to function as protection to the 'sheathed' blade. This I have not seen before. I have seen 'raw' lambs wool fixed within the throat of some scabbards (but, not of this type of sword), this had the dual function of 'wiping the blade' as it was sheathed and coating it with lanolin....to help prevent rust. Love the blade Regards David

24th April 2008, 02:05 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Ariel, I read with interest your link to a previous thread about these weapons. I noticed, on yours and others, that although the grips tend to be reasonably similar that there is quite a diversification in the blades not restricted to the fullers, which are mostly decorative and one would expect variations, but the blades seem to vary in shape considerably more than I would have expected for items with the same ethnographic background in time and place. From what I have been able to read these weapons don't occupy a great deal of time in history, late19th/early20th Century, is there a progression from start to finish in style e.g. simpler in the beginning and progressing to more complex shapes as time and taste advance or it may be that it is a regional variation . As it seems that a lot of these are dated it might not be too difficult to see if any links exists in the timeline of manufacture. Just a thought, nice pieces by the way. Regards, Norman.

24th April 2008, 02:16 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	David, I feel a bit silly I hadn't even thought about the leather being shaped to accomodate the shape of the throat when folded over, having said that if I tuck the leather into the scabbard throat it doesn't sit very well inside and I would have thought that someone that took the time to scallop the leather so neatly would have made a better job if the tags were to be glued inside the scabbard. I think I'm 50/50 on this, I can't see any evidence of glue either on the leather or the wooden surface inside the scabbard and the leather is quite secure right up to the lip of the scabbard mmmmm????? food for thought. Regards, Norman.