Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

Jampot10 · 3rd November 2014, 11:14 AM

Hello,
I found these old daggers / knives ? in a box of rusty tools I inherited from an Aunt. Had no idea that she had them and thought they might be gardening objects at first but thinking probably weapons.
Have trawled the net for similar and I'm starting to see that these might be Afghan or Indian. Based on patterning to grips - but really only guessing!
Ivory handle one is 14 inches long / wooden handle is 17 inches long. Have seen one knife similar to the Ivory handled one but not as big / I think the wooden handled one might be more unusual ?
Any information welcome as not even sure on age or even if these are real weapons - they are heavy though so suspect they are.
Hopefully images will come with this post but new to this so if they don't will try and post again.
J

Sajen · 3rd November 2014, 11:41 AM

Hello,

welcome to the forum! We have discussed this sort of knives before, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma
Maybe this will be of help for you. I like your knife with the ivory handle.

Regards,
Detlef

David R · 3rd November 2014, 11:48 AM

Very nice pieces, worth looking after.

napoleon · 3rd November 2014, 12:30 PM

yes these i seem to think they are african cant remember why,but ive got one in a scabbard somewhere ill try and dig it out,does anyone actually know where these are from?

Jampot10 · 3rd November 2014, 02:06 PM

Thanks for all the help so far and for thread links.
Anyone able to give a definitive 19th or 20th century ?

spiral · 3rd November 2014, 07:19 PM

Id guess as there different opinions over continents dating may be difficult. Id say definably pre.ww2 though... I wouldn't rule out late 19th century... etching to see the steel types would help that to a degree , I guess.

Looking at bolster & marks... this thread seems like they may be from a similar region...

spiral

linky

Gavin Nugent · 3rd November 2014, 08:41 PM

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

Sajen · 3rd November 2014, 09:56 PM

There are several threads where this knives are discussed and never someone was able to pin down the origin, I've read Skandinavian, North Africa, Central Asia, Burma and the North of India. I personally would say somewhere between the last three, they have an Asian appearance to my eyes and I nearly want to bet that we have to look here to find the exact origin. Maybe the maker stamps can help by this.

Here can be seen more of this knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

Andrew · 4th November 2014, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

Likely would require a complete forum software upgrade, Gav.

ariel · 4th November 2014, 01:41 AM

They were just discussed on a Russian forum Guns.ru

I thought they were SE Asian, but to my chagrin learned they were from West Africa, Yao tribe, Malawi. Apparently concentric circles are a dead giveaway.

Oliver Pinchot · 4th November 2014, 02:06 AM

Ariel, according to the Russian site, were there any other characteristics which place these daggers in W. Africa? The bird's eye motif-- those concentric circles with a point in the center-- are found in many locales, notably Afghanistan. I wouldn't attribute anything to a culture based solely on that characteristic.

Martin Lubojacky · 4th November 2014, 06:53 AM

I think (I really do not know, just estimate) the uverall shape is not African, either North or south of Sahara (after my 12 years spent and travelling there). The similiarity with chodmi is accidental. Despite the concentric circles.
Regards,
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 4th November 2014, 09:44 AM

sorry, wanted to write neither north nor south

Jampot10 · 4th November 2014, 01:49 PM

Again thank you for the comments posted. I find it really interesting that there are similar items about, this tends to suggest these are not one offs but a type specific to an area. Given this is it strange that these do not seem to have any formal identification ?
Or are they just so generic (simple) in style that they are a type that might have been used in various locations.
I guess as some have mentioned the key is the writing on the blades. I'm assuming this most likely to be a makers mark but maybe also a location or owner stamp.
I think this is what I will need to follow up - are there any linguists out there ?
These are the first knives I've owned ( purely through accident) but I can see already how this could become an obsessive hobby

spiral · 4th November 2014, 08:25 PM

It is strange, how little between us we know... There are dozens of these in existence, large numbers occurring in the UK.

You mentioned the Kaskara here Gav.

Would an advanced google search of just this forum for double searching terms, work?

linky..

But I cant find a kaskara in the thread..?

linky

& the one you linked to, is the same thread?

So I guess you either accidently got the link muddled or Ive mist another link in the thread where the Kaskara is shown?

To me the hilt looks , Dha from Assam?Burma?Thai regions, the riveted bolster looks NWF India, & the blade looks Burmese...

So I still guess Afghanistan to Laos, Tibet to Burma,

But it would be great if one day we can pin this down!

spiral

Gavin Nugent · 4th November 2014, 08:34 PM

Bummer Spiral....I did a two way link...well I thought I did...and I thought I linked the kaskara back to these threads too...when time permits...

Emanuel · 4th November 2014, 09:11 PM

Oh man, another one of these.

Google can search within websites by using the following syntax, then going to Images. It'll return all of the images from posts including the search word. This works with pretty much any website.

"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara"

I am still of the opinion that this is a North Indian / Assam / North Burmese piece, based on the bolster and the ivory handle. The circular motif is common to many different cultures around the world, and seen on the Bou-Saada daggers as well as on Afghan folding picks.

Here is an example from Akaal Arms without the circles.
Attached some examples of Tibetan knives that share many of the features of these knives (two if them from oriental-Arms) including the circular motif, and the non-integral bolster/ferrule.

Here is the last big thread we had on these knives

Regards,
Emanuel

spiral · 4th November 2014, 10:06 PM

Yeah that's a shame Gav..... Easily done though...

In truth the nearest blade on a quick search, I can find is this Burmese one...

Although yours is more advanced in fullereing, many similarities still I think?

From sold Items on your site...

original past sales link... linky

Although I have seen similar fullering on Tibetan, Nepali & also Balkan blades....

But riveted bolster that looks integral but isn't, Ive only seen NWF & surrounding area? As best I can currently recall..

spiral

ariel · 4th November 2014, 11:27 PM

Apparently, same knife is featured in Tirri's book on African weapons. Also, they are apparently exhibited in the British Museum with full provenance.
I did not check it, not my area of interest, but whoever wants to dig into it, is more than welcome.

Lee · 4th November 2014, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Use Google as I do when looking for old threads...

Exactly as Emanuel shows
"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara"

/vb - new forum
/ubb - archive forum
or omit for site-wide

DaveA · 5th November 2014, 05:13 AM

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.

I have seen the dot-in-circle motif on Bou Saada Kodmi from Algeria, a folding lohar from Afghanistan, and a bichaq from Bosnia. I'll wager there are many more examples from all over the world!

Based on the hilt's pommel shape, I'll wager on the Tibet/Burma/Assam region.

Best,

Dave A.

Gavin Nugent · 5th November 2014, 06:37 AM

Thanks Emanuel & Lee.

Here is a round the world trip.

From blade markings in other links about these knives there is this Kaskara with similar blade stamps;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=94044&stc=1

For the Dao looking axes here is a very nice unmarked example with the sale collar;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5759
With this knife type we discuss and that these things have carried similar marks, Ivory, Africa and circles brings me back to Africa, but wait there is more

Although not identical, the deep stamp markings are interesting on the Sudan dagger in post 15 by Lee
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111

Then I see Jen's post in 10 & 13
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3481
Which is clearly from India

So a short trip around the world, India or Africa...I still feel my bones Africa but British India certainly had the Tooling abilities to turn these out too..

Ponderous

Gavin

Jampot10 · 5th November 2014, 09:35 AM

Pretty sure I've now managed to identify a provenance for these. Many thanks to Ariel who pointed out the direction of British Museum which helped immensely.

Looks like the blades are almost definitely East African - Yao tribe manufactured Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area.

I'll start a new post headed - Yao tribal Knives and put up my reasoning for discussion.

Jampot10 · 5th November 2014, 10:14 AM

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation hence the new thread?

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

Gavin Nugent · 5th November 2014, 04:16 PM

Well done. To save confusion, please link the threads and or place this information provided in the original thread

spiral · 5th November 2014, 04:27 PM

Excellent!... to keep some continuity for the thread... Heres the BM link. {Below...}

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa.

{The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

Spiral

link..

Jens Nordlunde · 5th November 2014, 04:35 PM

My vague guess would have been India.
You should however consider, that India from ancient times had a lot of sea trading from the north of Africa to Madagascar, and maybe even further south. Trading for slaves and ivory - which is said to be stronger than the Indian ivory.
Jens

Tim Simmons · 5th November 2014, 05:49 PM

Hmmm, Still not convinced. Not that I know better. But look at the top Asian knife in the online collection. Through out the history of this site, time and time again examples of prestigious museum miss-identification have been brought to light.

spiral · 5th November 2014, 06:39 PM

I know what you mean Tim, but personally ill accept it for these... 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless someone can provide further evidence?

can someone merge these threads? as they are will just add further confusion to a possibly solved riddle...

spiral

ps.

I guess that's nothing new though...

Shakethetrees · 5th November 2014, 06:46 PM

[QUOTE]

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.
[QUOTE]

There isn't trick or shortcut. A piece of bone has to becut and fit, the circles and brass plugs have to be set just as they were done back when it was made.

3rd November 2014, 11:14 AM	#1
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance Hello, I found these old daggers / knives ? in a box of rusty tools I inherited from an Aunt. Had no idea that she had them and thought they might be gardening objects at first but thinking probably weapons. Have trawled the net for similar and I'm starting to see that these might be Afghan or Indian. Based on patterning to grips - but really only guessing! Ivory handle one is 14 inches long / wooden handle is 17 inches long. Have seen one knife similar to the Ivory handled one but not as big / I think the wooden handled one might be more unusual ? Any information welcome as not even sure on age or even if these are real weapons - they are heavy though so suspect they are. Hopefully images will come with this post but new to this so if they don't will try and post again. J Attached Images

3rd November 2014, 12:30 PM	#4
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	daggers x 2 yes these i seem to think they are african cant remember why,but ive got one in a scabbard somewhere ill try and dig it out,does anyone actually know where these are from?

3rd November 2014, 09:56 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	There are several threads where this knives are discussed and never someone was able to pin down the origin, I've read Skandinavian, North Africa, Central Asia, Burma and the North of India. I personally would say somewhere between the last three, they have an Asian appearance to my eyes and I nearly want to bet that we have to look here to find the exact origin. Maybe the maker stamps can help by this. Here can be seen more of this knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi Last edited by Sajen; 3rd November 2014 at 10:14 PM.

4th November 2014, 09:11 PM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Oh man, another one of these. Google can search within websites by using the following syntax, then going to Images. It'll return all of the images from posts including the search word. This works with pretty much any website. "site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara" I am still of the opinion that this is a North Indian / Assam / North Burmese piece, based on the bolster and the ivory handle. The circular motif is common to many different cultures around the world, and seen on the Bou-Saada daggers as well as on Afghan folding picks. Here is an example from Akaal Arms without the circles. Attached some examples of Tibetan knives that share many of the features of these knives (two if them from oriental-Arms) including the circular motif, and the non-integral bolster/ferrule. Here is the last big thread we had on these knives Regards, Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 4th November 2014 at 09:24 PM.

5th November 2014, 05:13 AM	#21
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	.. and a kukri with dot pattern Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal. By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested. I have seen the dot-in-circle motif on Bou Saada Kodmi from Algeria, a folding lohar from Afghanistan, and a bichaq from Bosnia. I'll wager there are many more examples from all over the world! Based on the hilt's pommel shape, I'll wager on the Tibet/Burma/Assam region. Best, Dave A. Attached Images

3rd November 2014, 11:41 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello, welcome to the forum! We have discussed this sort of knives before, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma Maybe this will be of help for you. I like your knife with the ivory handle. Regards, Detlef

3rd November 2014, 11:48 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Very nice pieces, worth looking after.

3rd November 2014, 02:06 PM	#5
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Thanks for all the help so far and for thread links. Anyone able to give a definitive 19th or 20th century ?

3rd November 2014, 07:19 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Id guess as there different opinions over continents dating may be difficult. Id say definably pre.ww2 though... I wouldn't rule out late 19th century... etching to see the steel types would help that to a degree , I guess. Looking at bolster & marks... this thread seems like they may be from a similar region... spiral linky

3rd November 2014, 08:41 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts. Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented. Gavin

4th November 2014, 01:41 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	They were just discussed on a Russian forum Guns.ru I thought they were SE Asian, but to my chagrin learned they were from West Africa, Yao tribe, Malawi. Apparently concentric circles are a dead giveaway.

4th November 2014, 02:06 AM	#11
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Ariel, according to the Russian site, were there any other characteristics which place these daggers in W. Africa? The bird's eye motif-- those concentric circles with a point in the center-- are found in many locales, notably Afghanistan. I wouldn't attribute anything to a culture based solely on that characteristic.

4th November 2014, 06:53 AM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I think (I really do not know, just estimate) the uverall shape is not African, either North or south of Sahara (after my 12 years spent and travelling there). The similiarity with chodmi is accidental. Despite the concentric circles. Regards, Martin

4th November 2014, 09:44 AM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	sorry, wanted to write neither north nor south

4th November 2014, 01:49 PM	#14
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Again thank you for the comments posted. I find it really interesting that there are similar items about, this tends to suggest these are not one offs but a type specific to an area. Given this is it strange that these do not seem to have any formal identification ? Or are they just so generic (simple) in style that they are a type that might have been used in various locations. I guess as some have mentioned the key is the writing on the blades. I'm assuming this most likely to be a makers mark but maybe also a location or owner stamp. I think this is what I will need to follow up - are there any linguists out there ? These are the first knives I've owned ( purely through accident) but I can see already how this could become an obsessive hobby

4th November 2014, 08:25 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	It is strange, how little between us we know... There are dozens of these in existence, large numbers occurring in the UK. You mentioned the Kaskara here Gav. Would an advanced google search of just this forum for double searching terms, work? linky.. But I cant find a kaskara in the thread..? linky & the one you linked to, is the same thread? So I guess you either accidently got the link muddled or Ive mist another link in the thread where the Kaskara is shown? To me the hilt looks , Dha from Assam?Burma?Thai regions, the riveted bolster looks NWF India, & the blade looks Burmese... So I still guess Afghanistan to Laos, Tibet to Burma, But it would be great if one day we can pin this down! spiral

4th November 2014, 08:34 PM	#16
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Bummer Spiral....I did a two way link...well I thought I did...and I thought I linked the kaskara back to these threads too...when time permits...

4th November 2014, 10:06 PM	#18
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Yeah that's a shame Gav..... Easily done though... In truth the nearest blade on a quick search, I can find is this Burmese one... Although yours is more advanced in fullereing, many similarities still I think? From sold Items on your site... original past sales link... linky Although I have seen similar fullering on Tibetan, Nepali & also Balkan blades.... But riveted bolster that looks integral but isn't, Ive only seen NWF & surrounding area? As best I can currently recall.. spiral

4th November 2014, 11:27 PM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Apparently, same knife is featured in Tirri's book on African weapons. Also, they are apparently exhibited in the British Museum with full provenance. I did not check it, not my area of interest, but whoever wants to dig into it, is more than welcome.

5th November 2014, 06:37 AM	#22
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Emanuel & Lee. Here is a round the world trip. From blade markings in other links about these knives there is this Kaskara with similar blade stamps; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=94044&stc=1 For the Dao looking axes here is a very nice unmarked example with the sale collar; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5759 With this knife type we discuss and that these things have carried similar marks, Ivory, Africa and circles brings me back to Africa, but wait there is more Although not identical, the deep stamp markings are interesting on the Sudan dagger in post 15 by Lee http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111 Then I see Jen's post in 10 & 13 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3481 Which is clearly from India So a short trip around the world, India or Africa...I still feel my bones Africa but British India certainly had the Tooling abilities to turn these out too.. Ponderous Gavin

5th November 2014, 09:35 AM	#23
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Pretty sure I've now managed to identify a provenance for these. Many thanks to Ariel who pointed out the direction of British Museum which helped immensely. Looks like the blades are almost definitely East African - Yao tribe manufactured Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area. I'll start a new post headed - Yao tribal Knives and put up my reasoning for discussion.

5th November 2014, 10:14 AM	#24
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Yao tribal Knives I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers. My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin. I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but : British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions. Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation hence the new thread? For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification. The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century. Please let me know your thoughts ? Attached Images

5th November 2014, 04:16 PM	#25
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Well done. To save confusion, please link the threads and or place this information provided in the original thread

5th November 2014, 04:27 PM	#26
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Excellent!... to keep some continuity for the thread... Heres the BM link. {Below...} So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating! Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa. {The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc.... Spiral link..

5th November 2014, 04:35 PM	#27
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	My vague guess would have been India. You should however consider, that India from ancient times had a lot of sea trading from the north of Africa to Madagascar, and maybe even further south. Trading for slaves and ivory - which is said to be stronger than the Indian ivory. Jens

5th November 2014, 05:49 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hmmm, Still not convinced. Not that I know better. But look at the top Asian knife in the online collection. Through out the history of this site, time and time again examples of prestigious museum miss-identification have been brought to light.

5th November 2014, 06:39 PM	#29
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I know what you mean Tim, but personally ill accept it for these... 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region... Unless someone can provide further evidence? can someone merge these threads? as they are will just add further confusion to a possibly solved riddle... spiral ps. I guess that's nothing new though... Last edited by spiral; 5th November 2014 at 11:55 PM.

5th November 2014, 06:46 PM	#30
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	[QUOTE] Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal. By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested. [QUOTE] There isn't trick or shortcut. A piece of bone has to becut and fit, the circles and brass plugs have to be set just as they were done back when it was made.