World War2/Japansse Officer swords

donsamadhi · 21st October 2016, 12:32 AM

I possess two items of officer weapons from the period of Japanesse attack on Pearl Harbour. First of all, I would like to ask you to help me with recognising whether the sword and sabre are authentic because I`m not sure for 100%.I`m not sure as well what is the meaning of those signs which are on particular parts of the weapons.The first item is an officer sabre with the inscription from the Emperor for Yama Oka Neigi (?) , "the Leader of Sasaki ,with the wishes of good luck (?)".I don`t understand ..Is it connected with squadrons of kamikaze or more with submarines which took part in an attack in 1941? The second one is a sword Wakizashi, it also was a kind of a prize from the Emperor. There is an inscription on the sheath and blade which points to that: "With the wishes of good luck from the Emperor for Kotaro Sato..(?)".
It is really an interesting story, as I know they came to Poland from Hawaii. I think they are rather authentic and for sure they have got some historical value for that period of the Second War World. I`m the owner of these items, I`ve bought them from my friend who bought ones 17 years ago from an American man.
Once again I`m asking you for help to recognise those inscriptions and to confirm that they aren`t any fakes.
Thank you very much.

Best regards.

Battara · 21st October 2016, 10:16 PM

I'm afraid that these look to me like Chinese made pieces.

The sun on the flags makes me think they are Nationalist Chinese if they are genuine.

Rich · 21st October 2016, 11:12 PM

Definitely not Japanese.

Rich

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

Pieje · 22nd October 2016, 12:18 AM

I agree, these look very much like Chinese copies/fakes..
Also, it would be strange to have an identical (serial)number on both blades..

kahnjar1 · 22nd October 2016, 01:04 AM

A point of history here, relating to your opening comments. The Kamakazi were not in operation until late in WW2...certainly not at Pearl Harbour.
As to the authenticity of the swords I leave that to much more informed collectors in this field.
Stu

asomotif · 22nd October 2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieje

Also, it would be strange to have an identical (serial)number on both blades..

Henk · 22nd October 2016, 03:50 PM

Definitely chinese fakes. I've seen them here in auction houses regularly.

mariusgmioc · 23rd October 2016, 11:50 PM

Yep, no doubts about them.
Chinese fakes. And very poor quality fakes.

donsamadhi · 25th October 2016, 04:39 PM

Thanks so much for the information.
I gave to stretch ...

Topic is closed.

Henk · 26th October 2016, 01:30 PM

Don't be disapointed too much. We all here on the forum have a corner at the attick we don't like to visit too much.

That corner is the place where we learned and studied from our mistakes. Welcome to the club of real collectors.

Battara · 26th October 2016, 02:32 PM

Honestly, we have all had to what RSWORD calls "Paying the cost of tuition" for collector's college. Most of us have learned this way.

Tim Simmons · 26th October 2016, 04:37 PM

Yes we have all been there and at some cost too!!!! It hurts for a while.

donsamadhi · 26th October 2016, 07:23 PM

Thank you for your words of support

I have a dagger, which I'm not sure.
I'II show you it in next post.

Henk · 26th October 2016, 07:46 PM

Please, keep posting and collecting. And while collecting look, think twice and study.

donsamadhi · 26th October 2016, 07:48 PM

One more thing about the swords above.

In regard to the same numbers on both. Well, these numbers are identical because they were made in the same Chinese factory of weapon on an order of the Japanese army. Is it possible?And is it possible that Chinesse made them for special people?I mean about the inscriptions.Or maybe it is also another fairy tale.

kahnjar1 · 26th October 2016, 08:58 PM

I agree with other comments above relating to mistakes we have made. It is how we learn.....and even the "experts" make mistakes at some stage in their collecting.
Despite the fact that your swords are apparently not the real deal, they are still interesting, and would look good on the wall as a conversation piece.
Don't be put off posting other items you may have....we are not here to be critical of others, but to help in the sharing of knowledge.
Stu

donsamadhi · 26th October 2016, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I agree with other comments above relating to mistakes we have made. It is how we learn.....and even the "experts" make mistakes at some stage in their collecting.
Despite the fact that your swords are apparently not the real deal, they are still attractive, and would look good on the wall as a conversation piece.
Don't be put off posting other items you may have....we are not here to be critical of others, but to help in the sharing of knowledge.
Stu

Of course I will, thx.

asomotif · 26th October 2016, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Despite the fact that your swords are apparently not the real deal, they are still attractive, and would look good on the wall as a conversation piece.

Sorry, don't want to put anyone off, but please do not see this as attractice conversation pieces. They are cheap copies.

kahnjar1 · 27th October 2016, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Sorry, don't want to put anyone off, but please do not see this as attractice conversation pieces. They are cheap copies.

OK I have removed the word "attractive" and replaced it with "interesting". To the non collector these would be interesting, copies or not. Our new Member is learning, as we all had to do when we started collecting.................
Stu

donsamadhi · 28th October 2016, 02:15 PM

One more thing about the swords above.

In regard to the same numbers on both. Well, these numbers are identical because they were made in the same Chinese factory of weapon on an order of the Japanese army. Is it possible?And is it possible that Chinesse made them for special people?I mean about the inscriptions.Or maybe it is also another fairy tale.

Henk · 30th October 2016, 02:18 PM

I'm afraid this is a fairy tale as well. Brutaly said, chinese antique is fake. You have to know how to look to distinguish real chinese antique from fakes.

asomotif · 30th October 2016, 11:09 PM

May I suggest this link : http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/repro.htm

But beware, much better fakes / reproductions are being made.
Personally I suggest to check ebay for antique japanese swords.
If the seller is located in China you most probably are looking at a fake or reproduction.

donsamadhi · 30th October 2016, 11:28 PM

I have no more questions except one: where is this type of original swords?

Thank you for your time.

Battara · 31st October 2016, 03:19 AM

I agree with Asomotif. In fact another to watch is anything that says or is from Paul Chen. His company says they make reproductions of Japanese swords with damascus blades, but others have attempted to sell Paul Chen stuff as original and authentic Japanese nihonto.

mross · 1st November 2016, 09:28 PM

All good advice. The current repro's are very hard to distinguish from a photo. Some of the better ones will even stump collectors. The long answer is study so you know what to look for. Yes this is a daunting task, but fun in and of itself. If you want to take a shorter route find a reputable dealer that will stand behind the sale. Expect to pay a large amount of money for a real nihonto. You can get authentic Japanese swords from ww II that are machine made, but "real", however not nihonto. It all depends on what you want. Study.

donsamadhi · 3rd November 2016, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

All good advice. The current repro's are very hard to distinguish from a photo. Some of the better ones will even stump collectors. The long answer is study so you know what to look for. Yes this is a daunting task, but fun in and of itself. If you want to take a shorter route find a reputable dealer that will stand behind the sale. Expect to pay a large amount of money for a real nihonto. You can get authentic Japanese swords from ww II that are machine made, but "real", however not nihonto. It all depends on what you want. Study.

Thanks o lot mross!

I just expected the answer like that

I can give some extra photos perhaps somebody will estimate it on the forum.

donsamadhi · 3rd November 2016, 04:55 PM

Extra Photos for Japanse swords IIWW.

donsamadhi · 3rd November 2016, 04:59 PM

Extra Photos for Japanse officer swords IIWW.

Henk · 6th November 2016, 11:39 AM

If you did study the sword as i did on these pictures, your alarmbells should have ringed. Even the machine made WWII japanese swords are well executed and do not show grinded fillings as the scabbard shows. Also the mountings are of a cheap moulded quality.

rickystl · 6th November 2016, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

If you did study the sword as i did on these pictures, your alarmbells should have ringed. Even the machine made WWII japanese swords are well executed and do not show grinded fillings as the scabbard shows. Also the mountings are of a cheap moulded quality.

Hi Donsamadhi. Welcome to the Forum.
Just for comparison, here are some pics of a Japanese Military, Type-95, NCO Shin-Gunto Officers sword manufactured at the Tokyo Arsenal between 1935-1945. Hope this gives you a better idea of what to look for.

Rick

21st October 2016, 12:32 AM	#1
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	World War2/Japansse Officer swords I possess two items of officer weapons from the period of Japanesse attack on Pearl Harbour. First of all, I would like to ask you to help me with recognising whether the sword and sabre are authentic because I`m not sure for 100%.I`m not sure as well what is the meaning of those signs which are on particular parts of the weapons.The first item is an officer sabre with the inscription from the Emperor for Yama Oka Neigi (?) , "the Leader of Sasaki ,with the wishes of good luck (?)".I don`t understand ..Is it connected with squadrons of kamikaze or more with submarines which took part in an attack in 1941? The second one is a sword Wakizashi, it also was a kind of a prize from the Emperor. There is an inscription on the sheath and blade which points to that: "With the wishes of good luck from the Emperor for Kotaro Sato..(?)". It is really an interesting story, as I know they came to Poland from Hawaii. I think they are rather authentic and for sure they have got some historical value for that period of the Second War World. I`m the owner of these items, I`ve bought them from my friend who bought ones 17 years ago from an American man. Once again I`m asking you for help to recognise those inscriptions and to confirm that they aren`t any fakes. Thank you very much. Best regards. Attached Images

26th October 2016, 08:58 PM	#16
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	I agree with other comments above relating to mistakes we have made. It is how we learn.....and even the "experts" make mistakes at some stage in their collecting. Despite the fact that your swords are apparently not the real deal, they are still interesting, and would look good on the wall as a conversation piece. Don't be put off posting other items you may have....we are not here to be critical of others, but to help in the sharing of knowledge. Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 27th October 2016 at 01:50 AM.

28th October 2016, 02:15 PM	#20
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	I renew my question.. One more thing about the swords above. In regard to the same numbers on both. Well, these numbers are identical because they were made in the same Chinese factory of weapon on an order of the Japanese army. Is it possible?And is it possible that Chinesse made them for special people?I mean about the inscriptions.Or maybe it is also another fairy tale.

3rd November 2016, 04:55 PM	#27
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Extra photos. Extra Photos for Japanse swords IIWW. Attached Images

3rd November 2016, 04:59 PM	#28
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Extra Photos. Extra Photos for Japanse officer swords IIWW. Attached Images

21st October 2016, 10:16 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I'm afraid that these look to me like Chinese made pieces. The sun on the flags makes me think they are Nationalist Chinese if they are genuine.

21st October 2016, 11:12 PM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Definitely not Japanese. Rich The Japanese Sword Index http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

22nd October 2016, 12:18 AM	#4
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	I agree, these look very much like Chinese copies/fakes.. Also, it would be strange to have an identical (serial)number on both blades..

22nd October 2016, 01:04 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	A point of history here, relating to your opening comments. The Kamakazi were not in operation until late in WW2...certainly not at Pearl Harbour. As to the authenticity of the swords I leave that to much more informed collectors in this field. Stu

22nd October 2016, 03:50 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Definitely chinese fakes. I've seen them here in auction houses regularly.

23rd October 2016, 11:50 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yep, no doubts about them. Chinese fakes. And very poor quality fakes.

25th October 2016, 04:39 PM	#9
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Thanks so much for the information. I gave to stretch ... Topic is closed.

26th October 2016, 01:30 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Don't be disapointed too much. We all here on the forum have a corner at the attick we don't like to visit too much. That corner is the place where we learned and studied from our mistakes. Welcome to the club of real collectors.

26th October 2016, 02:32 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Honestly, we have all had to what RSWORD calls "Paying the cost of tuition" for collector's college. Most of us have learned this way.

26th October 2016, 04:37 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes we have all been there and at some cost too!!!! It hurts for a while.

26th October 2016, 07:23 PM	#13
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Thank you for your words of support I have a dagger, which I'm not sure. I'II show you it in next post.

26th October 2016, 07:46 PM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Please, keep posting and collecting. And while collecting look, think twice and study.

26th October 2016, 07:48 PM	#15
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	One more thing about the swords above. In regard to the same numbers on both. Well, these numbers are identical because they were made in the same Chinese factory of weapon on an order of the Japanese army. Is it possible?And is it possible that Chinesse made them for special people?I mean about the inscriptions.Or maybe it is also another fairy tale.

30th October 2016, 02:18 PM	#21
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I'm afraid this is a fairy tale as well. Brutaly said, chinese antique is fake. You have to know how to look to distinguish real chinese antique from fakes.

30th October 2016, 11:09 PM	#22
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	May I suggest this link : http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/repro.htm But beware, much better fakes / reproductions are being made. Personally I suggest to check ebay for antique japanese swords. If the seller is located in China you most probably are looking at a fake or reproduction.

30th October 2016, 11:28 PM	#23
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	I have no more questions except one: where is this type of original swords? Thank you for your time.

31st October 2016, 03:19 AM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I agree with Asomotif. In fact another to watch is anything that says or is from Paul Chen. His company says they make reproductions of Japanese swords with damascus blades, but others have attempted to sell Paul Chen stuff as original and authentic Japanese nihonto.

1st November 2016, 09:28 PM	#25
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	All good advice. The current repro's are very hard to distinguish from a photo. Some of the better ones will even stump collectors. The long answer is study so you know what to look for. Yes this is a daunting task, but fun in and of itself. If you want to take a shorter route find a reputable dealer that will stand behind the sale. Expect to pay a large amount of money for a real nihonto. You can get authentic Japanese swords from ww II that are machine made, but "real", however not nihonto. It all depends on what you want. Study.

6th November 2016, 11:39 AM	#29
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If you did study the sword as i did on these pictures, your alarmbells should have ringed. Even the machine made WWII japanese swords are well executed and do not show grinded fillings as the scabbard shows. Also the mountings are of a cheap moulded quality.