Can anyone help me identify this dagger from Philippines

dark379 · 10th February 2015, 01:29 PM

Hi i got this dagger from Philippines in Bulacan province area in a old man, and it is made from Brass, bronze or copper? ( don't know the exact material) but not iron, it is also not attracted to magnets.
The handle in made from bone (unknown if animal or human), it had been damage in some parts of handle.

Look like the dagger ages from 19th century to early 20th century... not sure whether it is use by Katipunan or tribal or Spiritual / ceremonial events..

David · 11th February 2015, 07:56 PM

Interesting dagger. Looks copper to me and certainly has some age (i'd say at least pre-WWII. I have heard of the use of copper blades to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron.
I doubt the bone is human.

Ian · 12th February 2015, 12:18 AM

Hi dark:

That is an interesting knife.

The face depicted on the hilt appears to be Spanish, and I would say this dates to the period of Spanish occupation but the decoration is not from the Katipunan period--it looks earlier than that. The handle could well be made of ivory rather than bone just looking at the smoothness of the finish and the markings exhibited by the material itself.

I think this is substantially pre-1900 in manufacture. The carving on the hilt and the painted face are well done, but in a naive style suggesting local work.

The copper blade suggests a decorative piece of some quality as copper was not a common metal in Manila and surrounding areas during the period of Spanish occupation. This suggests to me that the hilt is likely ivory to complement a piece made for someone of relative importance.

As to age, it's hard to say just how old this piece might be. I would not be surprised if this was made in the first half of the 19th C, or even from the 18th C.

Good find.

Ian.

dark379 · 12th February 2015, 01:19 AM

Hi again Mr. David Thank you for the inform and ya it might be some magical in this dagger, base on the old man told me also.
During pre- 20th century Filipinos believed using amulets "Agimat" or "Anting -anting" for their protection. So there might be a chance the dagger might have some magical use.

Thank you again for your reply

dark379 · 12th February 2015, 01:29 AM

Hi Mr. Ian Thank you also for your information, ya the workmanship is naive style and locally done for it's own use.

I see if copper was not common that time, there might be a chance it was made specially by someone. unlike iron very common during that time.

Ya i also have a feeling this might be from 18th C to 19 C dagger or latest is early 20th C, because of the workmanship and patina.

VANDOO · 12th February 2015, 06:28 AM

I HAVE SEEN THIS SORT OF KNIFE IN INDONESIA AND MALAYSIA AND IT WAS USUALLY MADE BY LOCALS WITH COPPER OR BRASS AND OCCASIONALY BRONZE BLADES. THE ONES I HAVE SEEN WERE ALWAYS SMALL AND HAD WAVEY BLADES AS WELL. YOUR EXAMPLE IS A LOT BETTER MADE AND MUCH FANCIER THAN THOSE I HAVE SEEN BEFORE.
THE GRIP LOOKS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FROM THE LONG PASTERN BONE FROM EITHER A CARABO ( WATER BUFFALO) OR HORSE. SEE PICTURES OF COW AND HORSE LEG BONES, THE LARGER PICTURE IS HORSE LEG. THERE IS A OLD FORUM POST ON THE SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL POWERS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SORT OF KNIFE.

ITS THE BEST I HAVE SEEN OF ITS TYPE.

Sajen · 12th February 2015, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The handle could well be made of ivory rather than bone just looking at the smoothness of the finish and the markings exhibited by the material itself.

Hi Ian,

to my eyes the handle material seems clearly bone, see again to the attached picture, the material seems to be very cavernous in down.

Regards,
Detlef

dark379 · 12th February 2015, 12:24 PM

Hi Mr. Vadoo thank for the information, i agree that might be the part of bone used on the dagger.

I see, so the Indonesia and Malaysia have similar dagger like this also. Which i think might be correct because most Philippine swords has an influence of Indonesian design (like the kris sword). And i see the dagger has a relation on magical or spiritual usage, but don't know the exact purpose.

dark379 · 12th February 2015, 12:29 PM

Hi again mr. Sajen, i check the dagger again and looked at the section part (in the damage area). I can see the spongy bone area..

Tim Simmons · 12th February 2015, 05:50 PM

Interesting, love the face what a shame about the condition. Very interesting!!!

dark379 · 13th February 2015, 12:30 AM

Thank you Mr. Tim, ya it will be nicer if the handle is complete.

Robert · 13th February 2015, 10:10 PM

Hello Dark379, I have always been interested in these copper and brass bladed Philippine knives/daggers. I even have a small collection of them myself that I try to add to as often as possible, but due to their rarity it is not often that I am able to. I find your example most interesting in that it not only has a full tang, but that the slab hilt plates are being held in place by two copper rivets. Then on top of all that the plates are carved in the shape of a mans torso with a full face. I have also heard (as David has pointed out earlier) that copper or brass blades were sometimes used to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron and that the wounds that were made by these blades would not heal, but instead would become infected thus leading to the eventual death of the victim of the attack. I am wondering if the fact that your dagger has the face of a individual carved onto the hilt that it might have been made for an attack on a specific person? Like I said, a very interesting dagger.

Best,
Robert

dark379 · 14th February 2015, 02:27 AM

Hi Mr. Robert first of all thank you for the application and information, and im glad to hear that you also collect Philippine copper / brass dagger & knife. Ya i rarely see antique daggers made from copper or brass here in Philippines. About the dagger, ya it has a copper rivets on it with a human image handle, which i also find it interesting and mysterious (in it's use). I also agree to Mr. David and you about the "used to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron" and now i have an idea already for it's use. I check the dagger's tip edge, it's sharp that can use for stabbing someone. Ya there might be a chance that you're correct about the use of the face on the dagger, or there are some ritual done before using it. Ya a very interesting and mysterious dagger....Thank you again Mr. Robert

Robert · 14th February 2015, 04:02 AM

For comparison, here are a few of the items in my Philippine copper and brass dagger collection.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 14th February 2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark379

Hi again mr. Sajen, i check the dagger again and looked at the section part (in the damage area). I can see the spongy bone area..

Hi Dark379,

don't need to address me as Mr., sajen or Detlef is enough!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 14th February 2015, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

For comparison, here are a few of the items in my Philippine copper and brass dagger collection.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,
very nice collection of this rare Luzon daggers.

Regards,
Detlef

dark379 · 14th February 2015, 07:02 PM

Hi again Mr. Robert a nice collection... cool.... Like it

, those daggers have some resemblance to my dagger.

Thank you for sharing those dagger, love it.

dark379 · 14th February 2015, 07:03 PM

ok noted Detlef ...

Thank you

Robert · 14th February 2015, 08:45 PM

Detlef and Dark379, Thank you both for your kind words about my daggers. I really like these even though they seem to be getting harder to locate these days.

Dark379m, there is no need to address me as Mr either, Robert will do just fine.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

Best,
Robert

dark379 · 15th February 2015, 05:10 PM

Thank you for the warm welcome Robert.

Sure ill just call u Robert .

Thank you again for sharing your collection...Nice find

10th February 2015, 01:29 PM	#1
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Can anyone help me identify this dagger from Philippines Hi i got this dagger from Philippines in Bulacan province area in a old man, and it is made from Brass, bronze or copper? ( don't know the exact material) but not iron, it is also not attracted to magnets. The handle in made from bone (unknown if animal or human), it had been damage in some parts of handle. Look like the dagger ages from 19th century to early 20th century... not sure whether it is use by Katipunan or tribal or Spiritual / ceremonial events.. Attached Images Last edited by dark379; 11th February 2015 at 04:18 AM.

12th February 2015, 06:28 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN THIS SORT OF KNIFE IN INDONESIA AND MALAYSIA AND IT WAS USUALLY MADE BY LOCALS WITH COPPER OR BRASS AND OCCASIONALY BRONZE BLADES. THE ONES I HAVE SEEN WERE ALWAYS SMALL AND HAD WAVEY BLADES AS WELL. YOUR EXAMPLE IS A LOT BETTER MADE AND MUCH FANCIER THAN THOSE I HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THE GRIP LOOKS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FROM THE LONG PASTERN BONE FROM EITHER A CARABO ( WATER BUFFALO) OR HORSE. SEE PICTURES OF COW AND HORSE LEG BONES, THE LARGER PICTURE IS HORSE LEG. THERE IS A OLD FORUM POST ON THE SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL POWERS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SORT OF KNIFE. ITS THE BEST I HAVE SEEN OF ITS TYPE. Attached Images

14th February 2015, 04:02 AM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	For comparison, here are a few of the items in my Philippine copper and brass dagger collection. Best, Robert Attached Images

11th February 2015, 07:56 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Interesting dagger. Looks copper to me and certainly has some age (i'd say at least pre-WWII. I have heard of the use of copper blades to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron. I doubt the bone is human.

12th February 2015, 12:18 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi dark: That is an interesting knife. The face depicted on the hilt appears to be Spanish, and I would say this dates to the period of Spanish occupation but the decoration is not from the Katipunan period--it looks earlier than that. The handle could well be made of ivory rather than bone just looking at the smoothness of the finish and the markings exhibited by the material itself. I think this is substantially pre-1900 in manufacture. The carving on the hilt and the painted face are well done, but in a naive style suggesting local work. The copper blade suggests a decorative piece of some quality as copper was not a common metal in Manila and surrounding areas during the period of Spanish occupation. This suggests to me that the hilt is likely ivory to complement a piece made for someone of relative importance. As to age, it's hard to say just how old this piece might be. I would not be surprised if this was made in the first half of the 19th C, or even from the 18th C. Good find. Ian.

12th February 2015, 01:19 AM	#4
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi again Mr. David Thank you for the inform and ya it might be some magical in this dagger, base on the old man told me also. During pre- 20th century Filipinos believed using amulets "Agimat" or "Anting -anting" for their protection. So there might be a chance the dagger might have some magical use. Thank you again for your reply

12th February 2015, 01:29 AM	#5
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi Mr. Ian Thank you also for your information, ya the workmanship is naive style and locally done for it's own use. I see if copper was not common that time, there might be a chance it was made specially by someone. unlike iron very common during that time. Ya i also have a feeling this might be from 18th C to 19 C dagger or latest is early 20th C, because of the workmanship and patina.

12th February 2015, 12:24 PM	#8
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi Mr. Vadoo thank for the information, i agree that might be the part of bone used on the dagger. I see, so the Indonesia and Malaysia have similar dagger like this also. Which i think might be correct because most Philippine swords has an influence of Indonesian design (like the kris sword). And i see the dagger has a relation on magical or spiritual usage, but don't know the exact purpose.

12th February 2015, 12:29 PM	#9
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi again mr. Sajen, i check the dagger again and looked at the section part (in the damage area). I can see the spongy bone area..

12th February 2015, 05:50 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Interesting, love the face what a shame about the condition. Very interesting!!!

13th February 2015, 12:30 AM	#11
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Thank you Mr. Tim, ya it will be nicer if the handle is complete.

13th February 2015, 10:10 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dark379, I have always been interested in these copper and brass bladed Philippine knives/daggers. I even have a small collection of them myself that I try to add to as often as possible, but due to their rarity it is not often that I am able to. I find your example most interesting in that it not only has a full tang, but that the slab hilt plates are being held in place by two copper rivets. Then on top of all that the plates are carved in the shape of a mans torso with a full face. I have also heard (as David has pointed out earlier) that copper or brass blades were sometimes used to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron and that the wounds that were made by these blades would not heal, but instead would become infected thus leading to the eventual death of the victim of the attack. I am wondering if the fact that your dagger has the face of a individual carved onto the hilt that it might have been made for an attack on a specific person? Like I said, a very interesting dagger. Best, Robert

14th February 2015, 02:27 AM	#13
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi Mr. Robert first of all thank you for the application and information, and im glad to hear that you also collect Philippine copper / brass dagger & knife. Ya i rarely see antique daggers made from copper or brass here in Philippines. About the dagger, ya it has a copper rivets on it with a human image handle, which i also find it interesting and mysterious (in it's use). I also agree to Mr. David and you about the "used to strike at subjects that are supposedly magically protected against attacks by iron" and now i have an idea already for it's use. I check the dagger's tip edge, it's sharp that can use for stabbing someone. Ya there might be a chance that you're correct about the use of the face on the dagger, or there are some ritual done before using it. Ya a very interesting and mysterious dagger....Thank you again Mr. Robert

14th February 2015, 07:02 PM	#17
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Hi again Mr. Robert a nice collection... cool.... Like it , those daggers have some resemblance to my dagger. Thank you for sharing those dagger, love it.

14th February 2015, 07:03 PM	#18
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	ok noted Detlef ... Thank you

14th February 2015, 08:45 PM	#19
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Detlef and Dark379, Thank you both for your kind words about my daggers. I really like these even though they seem to be getting harder to locate these days. Dark379m, there is no need to address me as Mr either, Robert will do just fine. By the way, welcome to the forum. Best, Robert

15th February 2015, 05:10 PM	#20
dark379 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 16	Thank you for the warm welcome Robert. Sure ill just call u Robert . Thank you again for sharing your collection...Nice find