Bronze Age Weapons from Romania???

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

I understand that I am not a very seldom visitor to Ethnographic Arms and Armour here, and that many if not all of the participants here are focused on very unique and most interesting weapons and armour (and rarely talked about)...but would I be able to get any clarification of any evidence, or books to read from Radu, or any fellow romanian on this board of any bronze age weapons that would of been found in Romania, or any specific cultures that arrived from whence? Thankyou very much, and I look forward to hearing from you. Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Just wanted to bump, but also say, if you can find nothing or have nothing to add to help me in my search, than please say so, that would be better than leaving me in wonder, and waiting. Thankyou very much, and I look forward to seeing what you could come up with. Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Emanuel]

Hello Barrett!
Have a look here: http://www.dacia.org/history/dacii_e.html there certainly were bronze-age civilizations on the territory of present-day Romania.
Here are some pictures from the National Military Museumm in Bucharest...poor quality and blurred, and I am missing most descriptions, but there are a few bronze swords I believe

All the best,
Emanuel

[David]

A simple internet search also yielded this.

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Manolo:

Hello Barrett!
Have a look here: http://www.dacia.org/history/dacii_e.html there certainly were bronze-age civilizations on the territory of present-day Romania.
Here are some pictures from the National Military Museumm in Bucharest...poor quality and blurred, and I am missing most descriptions, but there are a few bronze swords I believe

All the best,
Emanuel

Thankyou so much for the pictures and the link, and I have been to that website before. I wonder its historical factual basis, and its valadity. Can you offer any light to this situation? Is that a good website to rely on, and also what is it really talking about, since I have only just skimmed? Thankyou so much, and if you find any more, any books or anything, please tell me!

Also, from your knowledge and from anyone else who has knowledge of bronze, are the weapons displayed their authentic, because I have heard otherwise in other cases about the authenticity and fakes in the museums of Romania? Any clue? Thanks again, cheers! Look forward to hearing from you!

David:

A simple internet search also yielded this.

Thanks, but I have already printed that off. I was one step ahead of you! Cheers!

So, if anyone else can offer me anything, anything at all, please do so! Thankyou very much. I'm going to e-mail my friend in Bucharest to try and take some pictures of all the bronze items in the museum their. Wish me luck! Cheers! Thanks again to all!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Barrett,
Interesting query you have posted, though it would be more approachable if you could be a little more specific. It would also be helpful to know what your perspective is on your search for information on these Romanian weapons.
Also, it is very helpful to know what progress you might have made already so that those who do respond do not duplicate what you already have.
The emphasis here is on sharing information so that we can all learn together and as noted, your topic is very interesting.

It would seem that the weapons of Bronze Age Europe and Asia have actually become an important factor in the study of the development of many ethnographic weapons as they are often key in thier heritage. One can see many similarities imbued in not only design elements and blade shapes, but often in symbolism in motif and markings that have quite ancient ancestry.

If you are searching for excavated examples of the weapons found in Romania, you are most likely directed toward archaeological resources and possibly contacting publications such as "Archaeology" magazine might offer some material on the subject . Although general in scope, Ewart Oakeshott's venerable work "The Archaeology of Weapons" (N.Y.1960) provides some very intriguing overview on the history and development of the weapons developing from the bronze into the iron age in these regions. I believe that the already mentioned Dacians, who were actually a branch of the Thracian culture would be key in focus and other cultures which diffused into these regions were the Illyrians from the south, the Scythians from the east and the Celts from the west. Via the Celtic influx, we might presume that swords and weapons of the iron age Hallstadt culture (with origins in Bronze age forms) may have entered the material culture of the early Romanians.

Sir Richard Burton in "The Book of the Sword" (1884), discusses the Dacian sword of the much later period of Roman times, but also refers to a bronze sword (p.262) held in the Berlin museum said to have been found at Pella in Macedonia, and suggests it may be actually from the Rhine Valley, also of course, Danubian ("Die Bronze-schwerter des K.Mus. zu Berlin" Bastian & A.Voss, 1878, p.56).He also notes the Hallstadt cemetarial excavations which provided key examples of bronze age and early iron age weapons attributed to Danubian-Keltic Alanni or Norician Taurisci.

I think that the more information and support that is presented and analyzed to corroborate material, the more likely is its validity. We always presume that any establishment such as a museum would responsibly display artifacts and note whether items are authentic or representative reproductions.

I hope this will be of some help, and might provide some ideas for you to further your research.

Best regards,
Jim

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

P.S. Please just read through everything, even the quote, because my replies to some quote got stuck in the quotes and I can get them out. I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out, thanks! Cheers!

Okay, I'll try my best to answer your question's as coherently and to the point as possible.

Jim McDougal:

[QUOTE]Interesting query you have posted, though it would be more approachable if you could be a little more specific. It would also be helpful to know what your perspective is on your search for information on these Romanian weapons.[QUOTE]

Thankyou for your interest. From now on I will try and be as specific as possible. Honestly, my perspective is to pick a culture, pertaining to my birthplace in Bucharest, Romania, learn about their ethnographic weapons, armour, and dress, even language (if their is any) and re-enact it, trying to be as historically correct as possible. I want to educate others who are interested as well.

I do have an interest in collecting antique items, but at the age of 17, money is very hard to come by.

Also, I adamantly believe that I should choose a culture where their is actual historical material to learn how such weapons were used, in conjunction with a shield, and armour. (Even if I need to use later sources, as they all apply to the same principle) I like the uniqueness of bronze and the look (as I do iron weapons as well), and find that their is a pragmatist streak in contrast, I do not have to teach myself (having no experience what so ever) to try and learn from the ground up how a sica, falx was used, and learning how to wield a spear is very natural.

I hope I have answered your inquiry.

Also, it is very helpful to know what progress you might have made already so that those who do respond do not duplicate what you already have.

I understand totally. So...I have gotten in contact with some fellow Romanian's in Romania, who are interested in historical re-enactment, but they are more interested in the widely popularized (like katana's ) Dacians, of which my interest has shrunk away for the time being. To that extent, I was introduced to Bronze Age Center and have been asking most of my question's their gaining well-respected responses.

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Ag...topic=636&st=0

Here is a thread begun by me, that you may be interested in. Though...

Copied and pasted from this thread to save me some work:

Said by Brock H:

[QUOTE]Hi, again, Barrett. I'm back from supper and a quick check of a bookseller's website that I have bookmarked.

First, the good news. I found two books for you. They are part of the Prahistorische Bronzefunde (PBF) series. This is a well respected series of books on BA artifacts, mostly weapons and lots on swords. I have 5 of the books and can recommend them and others here will also know the series.

Now for the bad news. They are in German. Some of the series are in English or other languages, but most are in German including these two. If you can read German, well and good, although since they are techincal in nature conversational German will still make for a hard slog. Even if you can't read German, you can still look at the drawings and should be able to figure out such things as length, width, find spot and where located now (if known). Weights will probably not be listed.

They are also expensive. Each will cost well over $100 with shipping, maybe $150-200.

You do have some options, however. Try inter-libarary loan. Maybe a university will have a copy of one you can borrow. Try the on-line book sellers: alibris.com, abebooks.com and amazon.com. Maybe you can get a used or unsold copy for a reasonable price. Try e-Bay, maybe the same will apply, although you'll probably end up on the German version. Bite the bullet and get them from the publisher. I recommend ILL first.

The books are Die Schwerter in Rumanien by Tiberiu Bader and Die Kurzschwerter, Dolche und Streitmesser der Hallstattzeit in Rumanien by Alexandru Vulpe.

Sorry I couldn't turn up anything better right now. Try doing a google on "Bronze Age Romania" and see what turns up.[QUOTE]

I have the money to get these at the moment, but my priority is to pay off my mother, which my goal is to save up to 2000 dollars Canadian of which is going to be used to pay off for temper-caused breakages in the house. I have about 600 dollars left to spend. After that I will be saving up for such books, and then hopefully for a historical correct custom sword from Neil Burridge (or I will work on making one myself, .

The emphasis here is on sharing information so that we can all learn together and as noted, your topic is very interesting.

I greatly agree.

It would seem that the weapons of Bronze Age Europe and Asia have actually become an important factor in the study of the development of many ethnographic weapons as they are often key in thier heritage. One can see many similarities imbued in not only design elements and blade shapes, but often in symbolism in motif and markings that have quite ancient ancestry.

I see...when you say "seem", it makes me wonder, but I know that their is evidence of a development of ethnographic development and that I must recognize it and see it.

I know this might seem silly, but since being adopted and all, I've wanted to take a DNA test and see where my roots really lie, so I can get an accurate report on where to base my research, because I want to re-enact personally the unique weapons, and armour that were used by my ancestors.

It is the same for all the weapons that are prescribed here, they are largely Middle Eastern, and South Pacific Island, if I am not mistaken, and they are very unique and not very well known of, and not like the common rabble (no offence's meant) of "knight" armour and weapons which we see so much of. I in no way would never say no, your not allowed to be interested in such, but researching such history which is clouded and shrouded in mystery, makes its appeal much more interesting to me. Saying that, I wish I could learn how to use a falx, sica properly, have a teacher to supply me. I try and not get wishful thinking mixed and forgotten in fantasy, and try and stay true to history, and what historical souces we do have.

If you are searching for excavated examples of the weapons found in Romania, you are most likely directed toward archaeological resources and possibly contacting publications such as "Archaeology" magazine might offer some material on the subject . Although general in scope, Ewart Oakeshott's venerable work "The Archaeology of Weapons" (N.Y.1960) provides some very intriguing overview on the history and development of the weapons developing from the bronze into the iron age in these regions. I believe that the already mentioned Dacians, who were actually a branch of the Thracian culture would be key in focus and other cultures which diffused into these regions were the Illyrians from the south, the Scythians from the east and the Celts from the west. Via the Celtic influx, we might presume that swords and weapons of the iron age Hallstadt culture (with origins in Bronze age forms) may have entered the material culture of the early Romanians.

Yes, I am searching for excavated examples of the weapons found in Romania to lend punch to my research. I've never thought of that, but it is definately worth a try. I wonder if I could have the "Archeology" magazines adress or link, please and thankyou's. Also, I have read "The Archaelogy of Weapons" by Ewart R. Oakeshott, and was most interested in the first 2 chapters. And you are correct, the Dacians were a branch of the Thracian culture, but were a collection of tribes, as you stated, Illyrians from the south, Scythians from the East, and Celts from the west. It is interesting though to note, that the Celts could very well have an influence in the Halstatt culture and entered the material culture of the early Romanians, more so than the other tribes/cultures.

Sir Richard Burton in "The Book of the Sword" (1884), discusses the Dacian sword of the much later period of Roman times, but also refers to a bronze sword (p.262) held in the Berlin museum said to have been found at Pella in Macedonia, and suggests it may be actually from the Rhine Valley, also of course, Danubian ("Die Bronze-schwerter des K.Mus. zu Berlin" Bastian & A.Voss, 1878, p.56).He also notes the Hallstadt cemetarial excavations which provided key examples of bronze age and early iron age weapons attributed to Danubian-Keltic Alanni or Norician Taurisci.

Most interesting...I never knew such things, but isn't Sir Richard Burton's books "The Book of the Sword" greatly outdated, and many of its statements debateable out outdated? Also, thanks for the "Die Bronze-schwerter des K.Mus. zu Berlin" Bastian & A. Voss, 1878, pg 56. hold any other valuable research material at all?

http://arheologie.ulbsibiu.ro/public...abia/foto2.jpg

Also, here is a curved bronze sword believed by my friend Romulus Stoica to be a bronze forebearer to a sica, but...in question the Bronze Age Center, it is more thought of to be a votive deposit, sacrificed to the God's, bent. Very interesting, though, I might add.

I think that the more information and support that is presented and analyzed to corroborate material, the more likely is its validity. We always presume that any establishment such as a museum would responsibly display artifacts and note whether items are authentic or representative reproductions.

Hmm...yes. I just wondered, because I was told from a friend Bogdan Costin in Bucharest, who I met on SFI that their were some fakes, and questioned. Just like I learned about ethics, you must always question and get the facts, the same goes for historical re-enactment, and collection antiques. Thanks for answering my question.

I hope this will be of some help, and might provide some ideas for you to further your research.

Thankyou, it sure has. I look forward to talking with you some more. Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Emanuel]

Hi Barrett!
A quick reply before going off.
First of all, drop the DNA test idea, it wouldn't get you far, as it isn't reliable. Furthermore, populations moved around a lot, even within the country, so you wouldn't get any true geographic marking past a few hundred years I don't think.

Now the curved bronze sword. I think that is purely a double-edged spada type, and that it was ritually killed for burial. The sword of the deceased was often bent in bronze-age cultures, thus killing the object's use as a weapon. I personally do not believe that it was a precursor of the sica, because this is a double-edged blade and it was originally straight. If the way it looks now is original, then we'd have the daddy/mother of the yataghan/sossoon pata on our hands

For that matter, do bronze single-edged weapons exist in Europe? A single edge would generally be seen on convex or concave blades no? with the exception of those with a T-spine. The Greek kopis is the only one that comes to mind. It would be nice to find where weapons such as the Thracian Rhomphaia come from. (the rhomphaia is the precursor of the smaller sica/falx, but what is the source of the rhomphaia?)

All the best,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Barrett,
Thank you for the very detailed response! and I'm glad that some of the material proved useful. It sounds like you already have a pretty good approach toward your ajenda for learning more on early Romanian culture and arms. Actually I have always found the history of Eastern Europe mysterious and entirely intriguing, though I cannot claim any specific knowledge, only very general. I think that it is outstanding that you are maintaining such responsible approach in your research and quest for accuracy in your studies. It seems that many are caught up in romanticism and fantasy and fail to really reach historical accuracy in thier efforts to reproduce the original weaponry, fashion and proper use of arms.

Acquiring authentic antiques from these regions is especially difficult as there is indeed an incredible volume of 'misrepresented' items out there, and anything authentic will be unbelievably expensive. You will be wise to visit or contact museums for information on thier holdings, and often they will of course have published catalogs of thier weapons. I think Wolviex here on this forum may have some excellent resources pertaining to weaponry from these regions. It would seem that Radu has disappeared, and we haven't heard from him much lately..but of course he would have great resources.

"Archaeology" magazine is published by :
Archaeological Institute of America
656 Beacon St.
Boston, Mass. 02215-2010

www.archaeology.org

I would ask if you might obtain any articles or back issues on your topic from them. It really is an outstanding magazine and would likely have information on excavations in the areas you are studying. Computer searches online, as you already are well aware, provide amazing resources.

A very interesting softback book is "The Bronze Age in Europe" by Jean-Pierre Mohen and Christiane Eluere, in the 'Discoveries' series published by Abrams in N.Y. While clearly an overview, this book provides a colorful array of illustrations of costume and especially weapons etc. from many regions that were certainly close in sphere to Romania. There is one illustration of a wagon from a Romanian excavation. This is easily obtained on line and of course inexpensive, being more of pocketbook size, still fascinating though!

We'll talk more OK,
All the best,
Jim

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Manolo:

Salut,

Hi Barrett!
A quick reply before going off.
First of all, drop the DNA test idea, it wouldn't get you far, as it isn't reliable. Furthermore, populations moved around a lot, even within the country, so you wouldn't get any true geographic marking past a few hundred years I don't think.

Now the curved bronze sword. I think that is purely a double-edged spada type, and that it was ritually killed for burial. The sword of the deceased was often bent in bronze-age cultures, thus killing the object's use as a weapon. I personally do not believe that it was a precursor of the sica, because this is a double-edged blade and it was originally straight. If the way it looks now is original, then we'd have the daddy/mother of the yataghan/sossoon pata on our hands

For that matter, do bronze single-edged weapons exist in Europe? A single edge would generally be seen on convex or concave blades no? with the exception of those with a T-spine. The Greek kopis is the only one that comes to mind. It would be nice to find where weapons such as the Thracian Rhomphaia come from. (the rhomphaia is the precursor of the smaller sica/falx, but what is the source of the rhomphaia?)

All the best,
Emanuel

Thanks for the quick reply before you left. Also, about the DNA test, thanks for that tidbit of advice. I never knew that. I was thinking of the tests used to find the geographical location of a skeleton, or a remains of a body, so that was what I was basing my premise on.

Also, I agree with you about the bent spada, . I never connected that the blade was therefore not a forefather to the sica, falx since it had a double-edge. Also, isn't the forefather to the yataghan/sosoon pata the kopis/makhaira. I love the look of both blades, the kopis/makhaira and the yataghan, though barely know of the sosoon pata. Though, I've always wondered, "?why haven't we seen more historical blades that are curved and double-edged such as the one that I've shown, throughout history?" I think such a blade would be a clearly efficient and useful weapon. But then I may be inputing to much "Modern" thinking into such a question. Who know's?

To the extent of my knowledge, I have seen examples of small single-edged bronze age curved knives, but nothing so large as a kopis/machaira, or falcata. I think that these blades were made out of iron later on, as can be seen in Classical Greece and other later Hellenistic areas.

As for the Rhomphaia, their are some historical authentic blades that I have seen with a T-spine, a few pieces by John Pipsico (all iron), that were featured in a myarmoury thread, which I could find again. And if I remember correctly, the Thracian Rhomphaia was a distinct, seperate development, and it developed from the falcata/kopis, and was purely a weapon development rather than an agricultural tool/self-defense weapons as was the Dacian falx. I don't think that the Rhomphaia was made out of bronze at any time at all throughout the Bronze Age, the technology not being able to cast something so long. But I may be wrong, when I get around to it, I'll ask around on the Bronze Age Center.

Hope, I have answered all your questions. Cheers!

Jim McDougall:

I'll get to you as quickly as possible, though right now, I have fitness class and have to work those sword-fighting muscles! (Kinda, more like build strength and endurance, lol) Cheers! Get back to you soon!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Okay, here I am Mr. McDougall. Sorry for the wait:

Thank you for the very detailed response! and I'm glad that some of the material proved useful. It sounds like you already have a pretty good approach toward your ajenda for learning more on early Romanian culture and arms. Actually I have always found the history of Eastern Europe mysterious and entirely intriguing, though I cannot claim any specific knowledge, only very general. I think that it is outstanding that you are maintaining such responsible approach in your research and quest for accuracy in your studies. It seems that many are caught up in romanticism and fantasy and fail to really reach historical accuracy in thier efforts to reproduce the original weaponry, fashion and proper use of arms.

Thankyou very much for the comments. I will definately take them to heart. As I have already said, I wish to be historically as possible. I personally think this would honour my ancestor's, but they most likely think me, or any of us doing research, historically re-enactment, that wer'e very peculiar and odd. For right now, I have to expand my horizons, broaden my interest, then really go and research, and learn all about and try to re-enact to the best of my abilities my chosen road.

Acquiring authentic antiques from these regions is especially difficult as there is indeed an incredible volume of 'misrepresented' items out there, and anything authentic will be unbelievably expensive. You will be wise to visit or contact museums for information on thier holdings, and often they will of course have published catalogs of thier weapons. I think Wolviex here on this forum may have some excellent resources pertaining to weaponry from these regions. It would seem that Radu has disappeared, and we haven't heard from him much lately..but of course he would have great resources.

Yes, I should very well do that, but I may need some help in "wording" such contacts with museums, as I think it wise to be direct and ask such questions in a polite, thoughtful manner.

I will definately check on Wolviex to see if he has any interesting information that could pertain to the areas that I refer to. Thanks, .

Yes, I need to talk to Radu, haha! He would be excellent, but he seemed to have disappear the last time I posted on this forum?

So, thanks for the perceptible information contacts, haha!

"Archaeology" magazine is published by :

Also, thanks for the link to the "Archaeology" magazine.

I would ask if you might obtain any articles or back issues on your topic from them. It really is an outstanding magazine and would likely have information on excavations in the areas you are studying. Computer searches online, as you already are well aware, provide amazing resources.

Definately, I would do that for you, and if allowed, I would love to "dispel" the information on the forum here. I have heard of it's reputation, but I have never had the excellent chance of reading it, sadly. Though, in the area of computer searches, I still have yet to do an indepth scour of the internet, I have checked on google, but you get alot of rubbish, believe it or not.

A very interesting softback book is "The Bronze Age in Europe" by Jean-Pierre Mohen and Christiane Eluere, in the 'Discoveries' series published by Abrams in N.Y. While clearly an overview, this book provides a colorful array of illustrations of costume and especially weapons etc. from many regions that were certainly close in sphere to Romania. There is one illustration of a wagon from a Romanian excavation. This is easily obtained on line and of course inexpensive, being more of pocketbook size, still fascinating though!

Yes, it is an excellent beginner book, and awesome to give a general look, knowledge of the Bronze Age to the starter-outer. I know so, because I have read it! Haha! It was a few of the books first recommended to me through Bronze Age Center to read to get my feet wet, so to say!

I actually have a link on the internet on my computer at home dealing with the Bronze Age, but I don't read french, does anyone on this forum at all knows french???

We'll talk more OK,

Yep, for sure, look forward to it! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Would someone be able to help me and give me the adress, link to the people of the "Archaeology Magazine" that I would be able to ask my question about the Bronze Age of Romania/Eastern Europe? Thankyou very much, and I look forward to hearing from you! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Rick]

http://www.archaeology.org/

Contacts:
http://www.archaeology.org/masthead/index.html

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Rick:

Thanks for the link, and I went to their site, but on the page of contacts, I didn't know if I should contact the senior editor, or the editor-in-chief, any hints, ideads?! Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Barrett Hiebert

Greetings,

Rick:

Thanks for the link, and I went to their site, but on the page of contacts, I didn't know if I should contact the senior editor, or the editor-in-chief, any hints, ideads?! Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert

Hi Barrett,
Possibly the contributing editor ??
Or try them one after the other starting from the top of the list; hopefully one of them will respond and point you in the right direction.

Rick

[Barrett Hiebert]

Greetings,

Rick:

Possibly the contributing editor ??

Yep, I shall do my best to go down the entire list, thanks for the information! Cheers!

Best regards,

Barrett Michael Hiebert