Opinions on reproduction turkish (or persian?) dagger

dakary · 12th September 2023, 02:32 AM

Hi everybody,

I know that a lot of the discussion here focuses on antiques, but I am really hoping that I am allowed to ask about a modern reproduction. If I am not, please accept my apologies.

I commissioned a sword maker who specializes in Turkish swords to make me a sword (kilij) and a dagger. He doesn't normally make daggers (he focuses on swords). I said that I wanted something ottoman and 15th century but we had trouble finding things. We did manage to find some 16th century daggers, with the understanding that there probably wouldn't be a huge difference - so I agreed on that.

I have attached a picture of what he sent me. It doesn't look much like anything I sent him or he sent me. I want to get your opinions on it. I think it is cool, and really well made, but I am worried that it is a fantasy piece and that I can't legitimately call this a historical reproduction. However, this order of the sword and dagger was my first dip into the middle eastern reproduction market (I typically dabble in 15th century Europe, or - to a lesser degree - 18th century North America) so maybe I'm wrong and it is fine from a historical perspective.

Here are my concerns with it:

1. The handle silhouette shape seems plausible (Persian?), but I am not sure about the flattened octagon handle. I wonder if it shouldn't be oval instead, or have more sides to it.
2. I am not sure about the riveted handle. I am wondering if this shouldn't be peened.
3. I am not sure about the side rings. Weren't these just tucked into a belt without rings, hooks, etc?
4. I am not sure about this lacking a chape. Shouldn't there be a chape over the leather, or under the leather with a ball sticking out? Were these ever without a chape?
5. I am not sure about the direction of the point. When wearing it in front, the curve goes left. Shouldn't it curve right?
6. Is wood something that was used for this sort of dagger handle/hilt?

I'll admit my total ignorance here (I hope these aren't dumb questions), and I really would appreciate some help and an education. Thank you so much!

Bob A · 13th September 2023, 04:33 PM

Not many 15th century examples readily at hand.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28406

Your dagger seems very modern in design, despite its general shape being vaguely based on daggers from the area in question. Certainly nothing like it would have been found 600 years ago.

Examples still in existence will have been preserved because of their inherent value and provenance; I'd expect precious metals and stones and remarkable levels of craftsmanship, rather than stark semi-Scandinavian sensibility.

Without discussing whether the dagger is appropriate for this site, I'd say your example has missed the mark more or less completely.

More or less a nice knife, but I hate the handle; wood is far from appropriate, the flat panels look uncomfortable as well as being unlike anything I've seen from the region. On appearance alone, it does not invite me to pick it up and "handle" it.

dakary · 13th September 2023, 05:12 PM

Thanks Bob.

Yeah that thread you posted was me trying to figure out what to send to the maker. Some of the information was sent to him. The following pictures were used in my discussion with him of period examples (how he came up with this I have no idea - he hasn't been responding to me at all...I feel almost like I have been fleeced but I was wondering if I just wasn't being ignorant and he made something right).

dakary · 13th September 2023, 05:15 PM

Pictures here:

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2023, 09:36 PM

Totally out of my area of interest, however, would "Ottoman" perhaps be a more productive search term than "Turkish"?

https://www.google.com/search?client...=1027&dpr=1.25

dakary · 14th September 2023, 12:46 AM

Here are some more pictures of it, so people can get a better sense of the construction.

Ian · 14th September 2023, 01:13 PM

Hi dakary,

I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go.

How does the knife feel in your hand?

dakary · 14th September 2023, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi dakary,

I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go.

How does the knife feel in your hand?

Thanks! I think it feels good and secure. My hand doesn't fully fit in the space but feels locked in. I am used to some European daggers like bollock daggers/dirks where your hands are supposed to ride on the haunches a bit and it does here. I don't know if that is right. Here are some pictures (because they are worth a thousand words!):

dakary · 16th September 2023, 08:13 PM

I want to thank everybody for their comments.

So I am thinking about what to do with this. I wonder if it isn't fixable. I think that the goal here should be low status...

Maybe I could, with some careful sanding, increase the area for the hand (it seems like there is room to spare, especially near the pommel end) and reshape it a bit so that the contours are less sharp and the shoulders are more defined (what do you mean exactly, Ian?

I'm still wondering about the way the hilt it is constructed, but I am not sure anything can be done about that aspect.

As for the scabbard...it fits really well but I should get rid of the suspension rings, as Ian said, but that might mean redoing the leather. If that's the case, should a chape be added or did these also not have chapes? I think some had chapes over the leather, and some had chapes that were under the leather. It would be easiest not to have one at all, of course, but I don't know if that would be right.

Ian · 17th September 2023, 02:28 PM

dakary,

Your pictures show that your hand is larger than the grip can presently accommodate for safe use, especially using the "ice pick" grip. The issue is slipping of the hand downwards on to the blade during use. Placing the thumb over the end of the hilt can help a bit but would probably be uncomfortable with the present geometry of the hilt.

If you place pictures of your knife next to some of the antique examples shown here, I think you will see that the cut out area is considerably longer on the antique examples, and the profile is flatter in the cut out areas. The small shoulder so produced provides some stoppage for the hand during use. The maximum depth of the cut out area presently on your knife looks okay, so it would be a matter of making the cut out area longer and flatter. Perhaps the maker of this knife would make those changes for you. After all, it's a custom order!

If you don't plan to use the knife then I would not make any changes to the hilt. The style is approximately correct. As far as the scabbard is concerned, if you wanted to make all the changes you mention it may be easier to simply commission a new scabbard to your revised specifications. Of course, that may be expensive. How much more do you want to spend on this project? A jeweler could likely remove the rings relatively cheaply. After that, things may get more pricey.

dakary · 17th September 2023, 05:43 PM

Thanks Ian for all the help!

The maker has gone completely silent for weeks. I was hoping to send it back for changes. Primarily for the scabbard (I wanted him to remove the rings, add a chape with a ball) and maybe make everything rounder rather than angular on the hilt though now I would also add a larger cutout area with a flatter cutout.

So now this might have to be a project for me, since I have no means to contact the maker other than facebook and whatsapp and I have been trying for weeks. Alternatively, if somebody knows a person I could send this to in order to get this all done professionally, I sure would appreciate that. I'm willing to put a bit of money in this since it wasn't that much to start with.

I do know a jeweller, and maybe she could remove the rings. Should I keep the brass throat though, or just get rid of all that? What about adding a chape?

I was thinking that maybe I should just strip the whole scabbard add a chape (but I'd need to find one...) and then re-cover it with new leather (I'm not crazy about the colour anyway).

It would be much easier to simply remove the rings, keep the brass throat, and make the cutout area bigger and flatter on the hilt.

Richard G · 17th September 2023, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

dakary,

Your pictures show that your hand is larger than the grip can presently accommodate for safe use, especially using the "ice pick" grip. The issue is slipping of the hand downwards on to the blade during use. Placing the thumb over the end of the hilt can help a bit but would probably be uncomfortable with the present geometry of the hilt.

If you place pictures of your knife next to some of the antique examples shown here, I think you will see that the cut out area is considerably longer on the antique examples, and the profile is flatter in the cut out areas. The small shoulder so produced provides some stoppage for the hand during use. The maximum depth of the cut out area presently on your knife looks okay, so it would be a matter of making the cut out area longer and flatter. Perhaps the maker of this knife would make those changes for you. After all, it's a custom order!

If you don't plan to use the knife then I would not make any changes to the hilt. The style is approximately correct. As far as the scabbard is concerned, if you wanted to make all the changes you mention it may be easier to simply commission a new scabbard to your revised specifications. Of course, that may be expensive. How much more do you want to spend on this project? A jeweler could likely remove the rings relatively cheaply. After that, things may get more pricey.

Well! That's to the point!
(no pun intended)

Best wishes
Richard

Ian · 18th September 2023, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Well! That's to the point!
(no pun intended)

Best wishes
Richard

dakary · 22nd September 2023, 05:13 PM

Just wanted to give a little update on this. I also reached out to the guys at Bayt Al-Asad, which is a cool channel for middle eastern arms and armour on youtube (they haven't been around for a long time but there is cool stuff on there), and they echoed some of the comments here. I'm going to at least try to do a little bit of a re-profile of the hilt. We'll see about the rest. I'll post pictures if anybody is interested. Thanks again!

12th September 2023, 02:32 AM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Opinions on reproduction turkish (or persian?) dagger Hi everybody, I know that a lot of the discussion here focuses on antiques, but I am really hoping that I am allowed to ask about a modern reproduction. If I am not, please accept my apologies. I commissioned a sword maker who specializes in Turkish swords to make me a sword (kilij) and a dagger. He doesn't normally make daggers (he focuses on swords). I said that I wanted something ottoman and 15th century but we had trouble finding things. We did manage to find some 16th century daggers, with the understanding that there probably wouldn't be a huge difference - so I agreed on that. I have attached a picture of what he sent me. It doesn't look much like anything I sent him or he sent me. I want to get your opinions on it. I think it is cool, and really well made, but I am worried that it is a fantasy piece and that I can't legitimately call this a historical reproduction. However, this order of the sword and dagger was my first dip into the middle eastern reproduction market (I typically dabble in 15th century Europe, or - to a lesser degree - 18th century North America) so maybe I'm wrong and it is fine from a historical perspective. Here are my concerns with it: 1. The handle silhouette shape seems plausible (Persian?), but I am not sure about the flattened octagon handle. I wonder if it shouldn't be oval instead, or have more sides to it. 2. I am not sure about the riveted handle. I am wondering if this shouldn't be peened. 3. I am not sure about the side rings. Weren't these just tucked into a belt without rings, hooks, etc? 4. I am not sure about this lacking a chape. Shouldn't there be a chape over the leather, or under the leather with a ball sticking out? Were these ever without a chape? 5. I am not sure about the direction of the point. When wearing it in front, the curve goes left. Shouldn't it curve right? 6. Is wood something that was used for this sort of dagger handle/hilt? I'll admit my total ignorance here (I hope these aren't dumb questions), and I really would appreciate some help and an education. Thank you so much! Attached Images

13th September 2023, 05:15 PM	#4
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Pictures here: Attached Images

14th September 2023, 12:46 AM	#6
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Here are some more pictures of it, so people can get a better sense of the construction. Attached Images

13th September 2023, 04:33 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Not many 15th century examples readily at hand. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28406 Your dagger seems very modern in design, despite its general shape being vaguely based on daggers from the area in question. Certainly nothing like it would have been found 600 years ago. Examples still in existence will have been preserved because of their inherent value and provenance; I'd expect precious metals and stones and remarkable levels of craftsmanship, rather than stark semi-Scandinavian sensibility. Without discussing whether the dagger is appropriate for this site, I'd say your example has missed the mark more or less completely. More or less a nice knife, but I hate the handle; wood is far from appropriate, the flat panels look uncomfortable as well as being unlike anything I've seen from the region. On appearance alone, it does not invite me to pick it up and "handle" it.

13th September 2023, 05:12 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks Bob. Yeah that thread you posted was me trying to figure out what to send to the maker. Some of the information was sent to him. The following pictures were used in my discussion with him of period examples (how he came up with this I have no idea - he hasn't been responding to me at all...I feel almost like I have been fleeced but I was wondering if I just wasn't being ignorant and he made something right).

13th September 2023, 09:36 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Totally out of my area of interest, however, would "Ottoman" perhaps be a more productive search term than "Turkish"? https://www.google.com/search?client...=1027&dpr=1.25

14th September 2023, 01:13 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Hi dakary, I actually like the lines of this knife, with one exception. The grip area of the hilt is too short. Comparing it to the antique versions shown by other commenters, the cut out areas of the hilt need to be longer and with more sharply defined shoulders. Otherwise I think he has done a nice job. If you want authenticity for the time period you are interested in, then the suspension rings on the sheath should go. How does the knife feel in your hand?

16th September 2023, 08:13 PM	#9
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I want to thank everybody for their comments. So I am thinking about what to do with this. I wonder if it isn't fixable. I think that the goal here should be low status... Maybe I could, with some careful sanding, increase the area for the hand (it seems like there is room to spare, especially near the pommel end) and reshape it a bit so that the contours are less sharp and the shoulders are more defined (what do you mean exactly, Ian? I'm still wondering about the way the hilt it is constructed, but I am not sure anything can be done about that aspect. As for the scabbard...it fits really well but I should get rid of the suspension rings, as Ian said, but that might mean redoing the leather. If that's the case, should a chape be added or did these also not have chapes? I think some had chapes over the leather, and some had chapes that were under the leather. It would be easiest not to have one at all, of course, but I don't know if that would be right.

17th September 2023, 02:28 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	dakary, Your pictures show that your hand is larger than the grip can presently accommodate for safe use, especially using the "ice pick" grip. The issue is slipping of the hand downwards on to the blade during use. Placing the thumb over the end of the hilt can help a bit but would probably be uncomfortable with the present geometry of the hilt. If you place pictures of your knife next to some of the antique examples shown here, I think you will see that the cut out area is considerably longer on the antique examples, and the profile is flatter in the cut out areas. The small shoulder so produced provides some stoppage for the hand during use. The maximum depth of the cut out area presently on your knife looks okay, so it would be a matter of making the cut out area longer and flatter. Perhaps the maker of this knife would make those changes for you. After all, it's a custom order! If you don't plan to use the knife then I would not make any changes to the hilt. The style is approximately correct. As far as the scabbard is concerned, if you wanted to make all the changes you mention it may be easier to simply commission a new scabbard to your revised specifications. Of course, that may be expensive. How much more do you want to spend on this project? A jeweler could likely remove the rings relatively cheaply. After that, things may get more pricey.

17th September 2023, 05:43 PM	#11
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks Ian for all the help! The maker has gone completely silent for weeks. I was hoping to send it back for changes. Primarily for the scabbard (I wanted him to remove the rings, add a chape with a ball) and maybe make everything rounder rather than angular on the hilt though now I would also add a larger cutout area with a flatter cutout. So now this might have to be a project for me, since I have no means to contact the maker other than facebook and whatsapp and I have been trying for weeks. Alternatively, if somebody knows a person I could send this to in order to get this all done professionally, I sure would appreciate that. I'm willing to put a bit of money in this since it wasn't that much to start with. I do know a jeweller, and maybe she could remove the rings. Should I keep the brass throat though, or just get rid of all that? What about adding a chape? I was thinking that maybe I should just strip the whole scabbard add a chape (but I'd need to find one...) and then re-cover it with new leather (I'm not crazy about the colour anyway). It would be much easier to simply remove the rings, keep the brass throat, and make the cutout area bigger and flatter on the hilt.

22nd September 2023, 05:13 PM	#14
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Just wanted to give a little update on this. I also reached out to the guys at Bayt Al-Asad, which is a cool channel for middle eastern arms and armour on youtube (they haven't been around for a long time but there is cool stuff on there), and they echoed some of the comments here. I'm going to at least try to do a little bit of a re-profile of the hilt. We'll see about the rest. I'll post pictures if anybody is interested. Thanks again!