Help with Identification Please

[kahnjar1]

Have this on behalf of a good friend. Bit of a mystery. The hilt is definately of the Tulwar type but the dead straight blade looks to be Dha! There is no sign that the two have been mated recently so must assume the mating is either old or was intentional in the first place.
Blade is tapered from the hilt (9mm wide) to virtually nothing. The blade tip cutoff is NOT a recent happening and the edge is VERY sharp. Again not a recent sharpening. Total length is 740mm with blade of 620mm and heavy. Unfortunately no scabbard with it, as that might have helped with identification.
What's your best guess guys?

[ariel]

Obviously, a combined piece. The question, when?
I would just look at the adhesive in the handle and hope not to find an aquarium putty

[katana]

Certainly a mixed piece, and as Ariel has stated 'when' is the ultimate question. Obviously if the 'mating' was recent .... it would be disappointing.
Bearing in mind mind that the blade is resin fixed, the blade should have been easily attached. But it doesn't sit centrally within the langets and would not fit a scabbard properly (the langet would catch on the throat as there is little space between one of the langets and the blade)

However, you cannot dismiss the possibility that this 'union' is older.... and if it were....would be extremely interesting, as I have never seen this combination before.

Regards David

[RSWORD]

The blade profile reminds me of some from the Assam region so perhaps a tulwar hilt migrated its way to that region and found a home on a Naga/Assam blade. Could also be a recent match. The adhesive could be a clue to how long the components have been together.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by katana

Certainly a mixed piece, and as Ariel has stated 'when' is the ultimate question. Obviously if the 'mating' was recent .... it would be disappointing.
Bearing in mind mind that the blade is resin fixed, the blade should have been easily attached. But it doesn't sit centrally within the langets and would not fit a scabbard properly (the langet would catch on the throat as there is little space between one of the langets and the blade)

However, you cannot dismiss the possibility that this 'union' is older.... and if it were....would be extremely interesting, as I have never seen this combination before.

Regards David

In fact the blade is dead central with the langets. Camera angle made it look wrong.Further pic herewith.
Regards Stuart

[Jim McDougall]

This tulwar truly is an anomaly, and I have never seen one with one of these blades either. I agree with Rsword that the blade resembles those of Assam dao. With this region being far from the normal tulwar 'habitat', the first question is has been agreed, how long have these incongruous components been together.
From what I can see of the metal discoloration in both hilt and blade, both seem concurrent and it does seem the piece does have some age. With these things all considered, it would be difficult to identify the region of provenance likely for this weapon with any certainty. It is difficult enough to specify regions for tulwars, even without this blade anomaly, aside from the general regions associated with them, primarily NorthWest India.

If this sword is genuinely mounted in period, as it appears, it seems it quite possibly have been mounted for an individual in northwest regions with what have been a heirloom form blade. During the British Raj, there were many paramilitary and auxiliary units as well as police units. It is my understanding that these units often supplied personal weapons, and I wonder if either someone from Assam may have been in such a unit in the northwest, or if possibly there were such units outside the military in Bengal. Bengal is of course adjacent to Assam, and there were of course the famed 'Bengal Lancer' units, who did carry tulwars.

There are I believe dhas with blades like these as well (as already indicated) and given British presence in Burma and environs, the same thoughts may apply here also.

Pure speculation of course, but thought I would just add it just in case anyone else might consider plausible.

The 'smoking tulwar' would be of course if other examples were found with these blades, and provenanced!

All best regards,
Jim

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This tulwar truly is an anomaly, and I have never seen one with one of these blades either. I agree with Rsword that the blade resembles those of Assam dao. With this region being far from the normal tulwar 'habitat', the first question is has been agreed, how long have these incongruous components been together.
From what I can see of the metal discoloration in both hilt and blade, both seem concurrent and it does seem the piece does have some age. With these things all considered, it would be difficult to identify the region of provenance likely for this weapon with any certainty. It is difficult enough to specify regions for tulwars, even without this blade anomaly, aside from the general regions associated with them, primarily NorthWest India.

If this sword is genuinely mounted in period, as it appears, it seems it quite possibly have been mounted for an individual in northwest regions with what have been a heirloom form blade. During the British Raj, there were many paramilitary and auxiliary units as well as police units. It is my understanding that these units often supplied personal weapons, and I wonder if either someone from Assam may have been in such a unit in the northwest, or if possibly there were such units outside the military in Bengal. Bengal is of course adjacent to Assam, and there were of course the famed 'Bengal Lancer' units, who did carry tulwars.

There are I believe dhas with blades like these as well (as already indicated) and given British presence in Burma and environs, the same thoughts may apply here also.

Pure speculation of course, but thought I would just add it just in case anyone else might consider plausible.

The 'smoking tulwar' would be of course if other examples were found with these blades, and provenanced!

All best regards,
Jim

Excellent Points Jim

I will speculate it is not an example of a composite piece, and that the sword may have been made this way from the start.. And who knows maybe the picture below will point in the direction of the "smoking tulwar".

Kahnjar1 it appears there may have been a great deal of Inidian influence in parts of Burma which may be a clue to your sword

Control of Assam, Manipur, Arakan and the Tennasserim was granted to Calcutta after the first Anglo-Burmese war,

After the second Anglo-Burmese war (1852-53) Britain annexed Lower Burma and made it a province of India.

In "AN AUSTRALIAN IN CHINA
BEING THE NARRATIVE OF A QUIET JOURNEY ACROSS CHINA TO BURMA"
BY
GEORGE ERNEST MORRISON, 1902

he says
"There is a wonderful mixture of types in Bhamo. Nowhere in the world, not even in Macao, is there a greater intermingling of races. Here live in cheerful promiscuity Britishers and Chinese, Shans and Kachins, Sikhs and Madrasis, Punjabis, Arabs, German Jews and French adventurers, American missionaries and Japanese ladies."

Wikipedia ( a source that can be good or bad depending on who posted it)says ""British Rangoon was heavily populated by Burmese Indians in British colonial times constituting 53% in Rangoon alone at its peak (c. 1930). The Burmese dubbed the city kala myo (Indian town) and even the Bamar and the Chinese residents of Yangon learnt to speak Hindi."

Mark noted in another forum that during the first Burmese war "The Burmese general, Bandula, was killed during an artillery bombardment of a fort. He was found to be wearing a mail-and-plate cuirass of Indian design." I hope he can add more on this

There is a picture of King Thibaw ( Thibaw Min, Tibau the Burmese king spoken of in Burmese Days by George Orwel) with a Tulwar. Thibaw and his immediate family went into exile in India after the fall of Mandalay. After that the Viceroy of India issued proclamation annexing Upper Burma ( Burma remained a province of British India until the late 1930's and during that time Burma was sometimes called "Further India") .

So back to my original comment. There are other documented cases kings preference in a sword affecting things for a short time. Didn't this happen with Emperor Qianlong in China where he had swords with hilts in the Mugal style ? There are also cases where troops from other lands influenced weapons of the lands they were stationed in, It to me seems very reasonable that there could have been a period where dha were made with tulwar hilts. They probably did not become mainstream. They certainly did not become popular. Just a thought feel free to tell me where my thinking is flawed

Whatever the consensus turns out to be on this. It is wonderful piece and I thank you for sharing it.

[RhysMichael]

I should have noted this in the other Bhamo is a city in Kachin State in northernmost part of Myanmar. If I remember correctly blades of this shape have also been atributed to the Kachin. The Kachin are also called the Singpho in the Lohit district of India. Another Indian-Burma connection.

[katana]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

In fact the blade is dead central with the langets. Camera angle made it look wrong.Further pic herewith.
Regards Stuart

Hi Stuart,
I'm pleased to be wrong ....the more I look at the sword...the more I think it's a 'genuine hybrid' .....any luck in ID'ing the resin ?
With the history of trade etc between India and SEA I can see no reason why the mating of hilt and blade would not occur. I am curious as to the balance of the sword, with such a distal taper I suspect that it is not as 'tip heavy' as it looks.

Jim, I wondered whether such a sword, with its mix of ethnic cultures and its overall length of nearly 30" the blade nearly 25" would have made a good candidate for a 'maritime' (pirate ) weapon.

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much RhysMichael ! it looks like we're pretty much on the same page! I like that you brought up the Qianlong emperor, which is an excellent example of hybrid weapons carrying pronounced Indian influence.
Another case in point are the koras with tulwar hilts, that seem to come from Bengal regions bordering Nepal.

Your thinking is anything but flawed! Its exactly the kind of thinking we should all employ as we study these weapons. Speculation is simply presenting ideas that need more evidence and support, which we always hope will be brought in by others with access to resources or examples that may either support or disprove the idea.

I have always been intrigued by examples of Indian swords mounted with British blades, and in some instances vice versa during the British Raj. In North Africa, it is difficult to find examples of the Manding sabre not mounted with usually French but almost always European sabre blades.
In Ceylon, the kastane nearly always had European hanger blades, many often with Dutch VOC markings.
We could go on for some time with examples of foreign blades mounted in local hilts, often one the primary theme of much of the research on many threads.
Also an excellent point on the Kachin !

You're right with us David! and I think this piece looks pretty good!
Also I like your idea about possibility as a pirate weapon! it probably would be if any of these guys got thier hands on one.

Thanks very much guys,
Jim

[ariel]

Swords with Indo-Muslim (Tulwar-type)handles were the most popular and abundant in India, and spare handles were aplenty because of higher incidence of blade failures. Thus, it is not counterintuitive to suggest that handles could have found their way into adjacent areas. Perhaps, their use might have been more prevalent among the "higher classes", because the rank and file, as usual with all commodities, were likely to get stuck with the local models.
Any evidence of a higher than usual quality of the Dha blade?

[kahnjar1]

Have not been able to establish EXACT composition of resin, other than to say that it is hard rather than softish as one might expect if it was some sort of putty.
The blade DOES appear to be of GOOD quality. Certainly not a cheap forging in my opinion, compared with some of those seen on some dha.
Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Not sure we are any closer to a resolve, but certainly some very valid ideas have emerged.
Regards Stuart

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Have not been able to establish EXACT composition of resin, other than to say that it is hard rather than softish as one might expect if it was some sort of putty.
The blade DOES appear to be of GOOD quality. Certainly not a cheap forging in my opinion, compared with some of those seen on some dha.
Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Not sure we are any closer to a resolve, but certainly some very valid ideas have emerged.
Regards Stuart

Further information to hand. I have just been talking to the owner of this sword, and he advises that it was picked up in a Paris fleamarket in the 1950s. He also has two other swords which came with this one.
I will pick these up over the week end and post them for comment also. One is a Tulwar with a marked/decorated blade and the other a european style sword in scabbard.
Regards Stuart

[kahnjar1]

I see that Artzi has another hybrid for sale on the OA site (item 9103). This time it is a Khyber knife with a Tulwar hilt.
It would appear that the practice of combining styles is not just related Dha/Tulwar.