Kineta Naga Sasra

Bill M · 18th March 2015, 01:48 PM

I feel myself having a revival of interest in these pieces! However time and age

has dulled my recollection.

Comments?

David · 18th March 2015, 10:43 PM

Why don't you tell us what you DO recollect about this blade Bill.
The dress and, i believe, the kinatah, look more contemporary to me, despite the loss of gold. This type of kinatah work does not seem as skilled as i would expect to see on high court pieces (which i suppose is the implication of the red velvet behind the pendok), but it does appear to be real gold.
I've never been a good judge of age and the gold work on the blade doesn't make it any easier for me i am afraid. Is the greneng worn down, because the ron dha do not seem that well realized in these photos.
Do you remember if the stones are inten, crystal or what? Can't really tell much on that from the photos. The dress is beautiful. Lovely wood grain in the wrongko.

Bill M · 18th March 2015, 11:24 PM

David, the dress is new. It is my understanding that Javanese connoisseurs do not approve of old dress. I think the blade is older. I think the stones are low grade diamonds.

I am hoping that the seller will chime in with some information.

David · 19th March 2015, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

David, the dress is new. It is my understanding that Javanese connoisseurs do not approve of old dress. I think the blade is older. I think the stones are low grade diamonds.

I am hoping that the seller will chime in with some information.

Yes, Bill, i believe you are correct on that. My response was not in any way meant to be taken as disapproving of the new dress. As i said, it's very beautiful. My only concern with this dress is the red velvet under the pendok, and then, only if this never had a life as a court blade. I may be mistaken, but it has always been my understanding that the red signifies a certain royal family status. This is at least my understanding when the pendok is lacquered red. Not sure if the same applies to velvet.
I believe inten are low-grade diamonds, but maybe i have that wrong.
I am sure that if you merely wanted the input of the seller you could easily email him your questions...

Bill M · 19th March 2015, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am sure that if you merely wanted the input of the seller you could easily email him your questions...

Have sent a few emails in the past, but the seller has been unresponsive.

Jean · 20th March 2015, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

Have sent a few emails in the past, but the seller has been unresponsive.

Hi Bill,
The lack of reaction from the seller is not surprising if he sold this piece to you as old/antique.
My personal opinion (based on the pics only) is as follows:
This kris looks fully recent with the possible exception of the selut, the scabbard seems to be made from jati gembol (teak burr), and the blade with kinatah is madurese. The stones on the selut are probably yakuts (quartz) and not intens but only a jeweler could confirm it. And I agree with David that the pendok with red velvet insert is not at all a court type.
Of course I could be mistaken and other opinions are welcome!
Regards

Bill M · 20th March 2015, 02:59 PM

Jean, David, what do you consider as "old/antique"? Over 50 years? Over 100 years?

I honestly don't remember if the seller said it was really old. He did say it was a good example and I doubt that he would mislead me.

I like the keris and I realize that it is difficult to ascertain without having it in hand. I am not offended by opinions. I do not consider myself as an expert in keris and am looking for comments so that I might learn.

Please keep opinions and comments coming, I want to learn.

Jean · 20th March 2015, 07:45 PM

Hi Bill,
One definition often used for old krisses is "made before WW2 but no more than about 150 years old", corresponding to the nem-neman period in Java. For antique krisses there is much less consensus, it could be for instance "a kris made before the Mataram era".
Your kris is nicely made and very decorative and I fully understand that you like it very much, I own similar pieces also, see pic.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2015, 09:00 AM

Bill, I believe that the person who sold you this keris is a bloke by the name of Alan G. Maisey.

I know this bloke pretty well, and in his recollection he has not received any correspondence from you for some years.

If you care to resend those emails that you believe I failed to respond to, to my current email address I'll be happy to respond to them.

PM me and I'll supply my current email address.

I probably no longer have the description available that I provided when you bought this keris, but just looking at what I can see, it is unlikely that the stones in the selut are intan, much more likely that they are rose cut rock crystal (Yakut). Any selut with even low quality intan is a pretty expensive proposition.

The red velvet backing to the krawangan slorok has absolutely no court association at all. This is a good quality dress keris, and the colour of the backing for the slorok is artistic rather than being meant to carry any hierarchical code for court use. The use of a cloth or plated backing for a krawangan pendok permits the colour of the backing material to be altered to harmonise with the attire of the wearer or the nature of the occasion.

Red kemalo pendoks are used for court wear certainly, but this pendok is not kemalo, it is silver. There are a couple of different shades of red, one used by young men, the other by older men of defined hierarchical levels. This is so in the Surakarta court, in other courts I do not know the designations nor regulations.

The blade is probably not Madura, it is more likely to be early current era Central Jawa. I would not any longer have any purchase records of this keris, but I believe it would have been acquired prior to the time when the Madura makers began producing this type of blade. People tend to forget that as late as the mid-1990's the vast bulk of blades coming out of Madura looked nothing like a Javanese keris at all.

In any case, I would not have stated any age for this keris, it is not really able to have a tangguh classification applied, but rather could be considered a generic Central Javanese keris.

It is most definitely not antique, by any recognized legal standard. "Antique" means more than 100 years old. This keris is not more than 100 years old.

If you care to provide me with an approximate date of purchase I may be able to check my hard-copy records when I return home in another month or so, it is possible I may have a précis of the description I provided you with at the time of purchase.

Jean · 21st March 2015, 10:50 AM

Thank you Alan and I agree that the blade is most probably javanese if it was made more than 20 years ago.
Regards

Bill M · 28th November 2018, 12:47 PM

Thank you Alan for your help and description. Happy we are back in contact.

18th March 2015, 01:48 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Kineta Naga Sasra I feel myself having a revival of interest in these pieces! However time and age has dulled my recollection. Comments? Attached Images

18th March 2015, 10:43 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Why don't you tell us what you DO recollect about this blade Bill. The dress and, i believe, the kinatah, look more contemporary to me, despite the loss of gold. This type of kinatah work does not seem as skilled as i would expect to see on high court pieces (which i suppose is the implication of the red velvet behind the pendok), but it does appear to be real gold. I've never been a good judge of age and the gold work on the blade doesn't make it any easier for me i am afraid. Is the greneng worn down, because the ron dha do not seem that well realized in these photos. Do you remember if the stones are inten, crystal or what? Can't really tell much on that from the photos. The dress is beautiful. Lovely wood grain in the wrongko. Last edited by David; 19th March 2015 at 12:03 AM.

18th March 2015, 11:24 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	David, the dress is new. It is my understanding that Javanese connoisseurs do not approve of old dress. I think the blade is older. I think the stones are low grade diamonds. I am hoping that the seller will chime in with some information. Last edited by Bill M; 19th March 2015 at 06:18 PM.

20th March 2015, 07:45 PM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hi Bill, One definition often used for old krisses is "made before WW2 but no more than about 150 years old", corresponding to the nem-neman period in Java. For antique krisses there is much less consensus, it could be for instance "a kris made before the Mataram era". Your kris is nicely made and very decorative and I fully understand that you like it very much, I own similar pieces also, see pic. Regards Attached Images

21st March 2015, 10:50 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and I agree that the blade is most probably javanese if it was made more than 20 years ago. Regards Last edited by Jean; 21st March 2015 at 05:35 PM.

20th March 2015, 02:59 PM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Jean, David, what do you consider as "old/antique"? Over 50 years? Over 100 years? I honestly don't remember if the seller said it was really old. He did say it was a good example and I doubt that he would mislead me. I like the keris and I realize that it is difficult to ascertain without having it in hand. I am not offended by opinions. I do not consider myself as an expert in keris and am looking for comments so that I might learn. Please keep opinions and comments coming, I want to learn.

21st March 2015, 09:00 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Bill, I believe that the person who sold you this keris is a bloke by the name of Alan G. Maisey. I know this bloke pretty well, and in his recollection he has not received any correspondence from you for some years. If you care to resend those emails that you believe I failed to respond to, to my current email address I'll be happy to respond to them. PM me and I'll supply my current email address. I probably no longer have the description available that I provided when you bought this keris, but just looking at what I can see, it is unlikely that the stones in the selut are intan, much more likely that they are rose cut rock crystal (Yakut). Any selut with even low quality intan is a pretty expensive proposition. The red velvet backing to the krawangan slorok has absolutely no court association at all. This is a good quality dress keris, and the colour of the backing for the slorok is artistic rather than being meant to carry any hierarchical code for court use. The use of a cloth or plated backing for a krawangan pendok permits the colour of the backing material to be altered to harmonise with the attire of the wearer or the nature of the occasion. Red kemalo pendoks are used for court wear certainly, but this pendok is not kemalo, it is silver. There are a couple of different shades of red, one used by young men, the other by older men of defined hierarchical levels. This is so in the Surakarta court, in other courts I do not know the designations nor regulations. The blade is probably not Madura, it is more likely to be early current era Central Jawa. I would not any longer have any purchase records of this keris, but I believe it would have been acquired prior to the time when the Madura makers began producing this type of blade. People tend to forget that as late as the mid-1990's the vast bulk of blades coming out of Madura looked nothing like a Javanese keris at all. In any case, I would not have stated any age for this keris, it is not really able to have a tangguh classification applied, but rather could be considered a generic Central Javanese keris. It is most definitely not antique, by any recognized legal standard. "Antique" means more than 100 years old. This keris is not more than 100 years old. If you care to provide me with an approximate date of purchase I may be able to check my hard-copy records when I return home in another month or so, it is possible I may have a précis of the description I provided you with at the time of purchase.

28th November 2018, 12:47 PM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thank you Alan for your help and description. Happy we are back in contact.