Sword marking for ID

[Evgeny_K]

Dear colleagues,
I would be very grateful if you help to identify this marking (from THIS sword).
I'm not sure of its origin (maybe Austrian, maybe Italian...).

[Jim McDougall]

Evgeny, this truly is a beauty! and while I cannot place the deeply stamped mark as yet, I am inclined toward an Eastern European origin for the sword. I have seen the pommel type but need to check further. Hopefully more advanced members will offer insights, but I will surely keep looking myself.

Any notes you might add as far as possible provenance or findings thus far in your research?

[Evgeny_K]

Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.

Thank you Evgeny, that is most helpful, and my thoughts are as I noted, East Europe in initial impression, so that region would of course correspond. My resources on weapons from these areas are not great, and while most European markings are fairly covered in the familiar compendiums, however those of most of these areas, as you well know, are typically not.

The best bet is going to be guys like Jasper, who know from hands on experience, these kinds of markings not usually in these references. I look forward to hearing from him and anyone else who might have seen this mark, but continue looking and hope to learn more on this sabre type.

Thank you very much for posting this and the information.

[Evgeny_K]

Thank you, Jim! I hope that together we can find out what this marking is.
I forgot to mention that there is an inlaid inscription on the blade that looks like: "E ... + X".

[Jim McDougall]

You bet Evgeny! Actually I have been working on this all day, and dragged out every resource I have on hand.

While I could not find an exact match, I not reluctant to express my thoughts based on the information I could find. I enjoy researching from examples such as yours as it is a learning experience. If the 'experts' come in and correct my observations, then all the better

It would appear from info in Wagner (1967) that your saber (hiebmesser) is likely of German, E.European origin and likely 16th century by the form and character as seen in the images. This was of course a transitional period and diffusion of blades and styles moved in all directions regionally, especially with mercenary forces and colonization.

The curved blade with yelman such as yours is known in Bohemia in 16th c. but these type weapons were well known for burghers earlier. Hungary and Balkans were populated by Germans, so the German form would not be surprising with Moldava provenance as you note.

The pommel reminds me of the schiavona types though not the exact same and these are known to have come from Hungarian swords of these periods into Dalmatian regions.

With the marking, I went through everything, Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Kinman, Gardner, Wagner, etc. and no EXACT match. However I found comparisons similar in styling with joined geometric designs, in a sigil like fashion, and the split foot (tails) is apparently used in Milan situated marks. Otherwise the design resembles early Passau type markings of 1520s-60s.

It is tempting to consider this sword may be of S. German origin to East Europe of 16th century, with character of earlier straight blade swords (Oakeshott type III) in the hilt with a curved blade favored in E. Europe.

The use of blade inscriptions is fascinating and it would be good to make this one out. I wonder if your mark may have been latten filled.

The marking may be a sundry example which may have incorporated any of the elements of others circulating in these times, and possibly by armorers outfitting mercenary forces in Passau for one. These and other regional locations had blades, swords and other arms from makers in Solingen and Styrian sources which remain unrecorded as far as markings in many cases.

Sorry unable to find a match, but I think the rest of the detail is somewhat plausible as far as the sword overall. Authentication is of course best determined with hands on examination and analysis.
Looks like a great piece !!!

[Victrix]

Yes interesting sword. The National Museum of Hungary has a large number of swords with similar pommels. I understand that these swords were mostly ordered and imported to Hungarian lands (much larger area in those days) from N.Italy and S.Germany and Austria. Sometimes the swords are called Schiavonesca (suggesting Slavic use) although these tend to have S shaped quillons. As Jim mentions there were lots of mercenaries active in the region in those days.

I note that the mark is in relief with sunk background which must be unusual except for Spanish sword marks? I normally see this mostly on halberds.

[fernando]

Evgeny, can you show as the whole sword, clean as it is now ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes interesting sword. The National Museum of Hungary has a large number of swords with similar pommels. I understand that these swords were mostly ordered and imported to Hungarian lands (much larger area in those days) from N.Italy and S.Germany and Austria. Sometimes the swords are called Schiavonesca (suggesting Slavic use) although these tend to have S shaped quillons. As Jim mentions there were lots of mercenaries active in the region in those days.

I note that the mark is in relief with sunk background which must be unusual except for Spanish sword marks? I normally see this mostly on halberds.

Thank you Victrix. It seems that Ostrowski in his 1979 treatise "Origins of the Polish Saber", noted regarding Hungarian swords, that there was no apparent sword making industry there, and that their swords came from the locations you indicated. As these style hilts diffused into Italian regions, they developed in certain cases into the well known 'schiavona' typically associated with Venice, and the Dalmatian forces who served there in the Court of the Doge.

As you mention, that sunken cartouche punzone style does recall the Spanish method, and it seems those influences well diffused into provincial regions of that empire. With weaponry of these times, it does seem that these kinds of stamps would be placed on the various forms provided by suppliers in centers frequented by mercenary forces so marks on polearms perhaps might have been applied to swords brought into these centers.

It would seem that expanding the search for comparisons to this mark into the broader scope of arms, including guns, may give us more options.

[Victrix]

Although I could not find an identical mark in Staffan Kinman’s excellent European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks (2015) I found examples of the sunken cartouche punzone marks as Jim calls it. There are other similar marks in the book from Munich and Passau.

[Evgeny_K]

Jim, Victrix, thank you for the great analysis!

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by fernando

Evgeny, can you show as the whole sword, clean as it is now ?

Fernando, I can’t show it yet. A little bit later.

[Helleri]

These marks seem to be serif and somewhat random or unpredictable in their form. I wonder if this was meant to act in a similar fashion the cattle brand marks which were designed to ward against being modified. In the case of cattle branding it was an anti theft thing. In the case of blade making perhaps it's an anti counterfeit thing? Or perhaps they are compound alchemical symbols to denote alloy?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Helleri

These marks seem to be serif and somewhat random or unpredictable in their form. I wonder if this was meant to act in a similar fashion the cattle brand marks which were designed to ward against being modified. In the case of cattle branding it was an anti theft thing. In the case of blade making perhaps it's an anti counterfeit thing? Or perhaps they are compound alchemical symbols to denote alloy?

Interesting subject. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_mark and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant%27s_mark.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Interesting subject. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_mark.

Interesting to note "similarity" in systems between House marks in the link above and that applied by fishermen in my hometown; either knife carved in tools and property ... and at chapel doors they visit in their pilgrimages. A writing costume fading away though, with the advent of their alphabetization.


,

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting to note "similarity" in systems between House marks in the link above and that applied by fishermen in my hometown; either knife carved in tools and property ... and at chapel doors they visit in their pilgrimages. A writing costume fading away though, with the advent of their alphabetization.


,

Yes, this is interesting. I thought these house marks had Germanic origins but perhaps their use was fairly universal. Could this have Visigothic origins in Portugal? I guess the common denominator is that these symbols were used by illiterate people to identify themselves in the vernacular with the use of symbols. Not sure if the symbol in the first post looks particularly Germanic.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes, this is interesting. I thought these house marks had Germanic origins but perhaps their use was fairly universal. Could this have Visigothic origins in Portugal? I guess the common denominator is that these symbols were used by illiterate people to identify themselves in the vernacular with the use of symbols. Not sure if the symbol in the first post looks particularly Germanic.

I would not venture that the symbol in Evgeny's sword has a connection with House maks; was only following your stream. Yes, the so called "siglas" are defined as a primitive proto writing, used by then illiterate locals, specially among the fishing comunity; even figuring in ledger books, in which the creditor had the debtor to recognize his account by checking his (name) mark, followed by the money values represented with rounds and strokes.
Whether brought by the Visigods or the Vikings, a current conviction, is hard to say; we have had countless races passing or staying over here.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by fernando

Evgeny, can you show as the whole sword, clean as it is now ?

Here it is. Whole length is 107 cm.

[fernando]

Great work ... and great sword; thank you for sharing, Evgeny .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Helleri

These marks seem to be serif and somewhat random or unpredictable in their form. I wonder if this was meant to act in a similar fashion the cattle brand marks which were designed to ward against being modified. In the case of cattle branding it was an anti theft thing. In the case of blade making perhaps it's an anti counterfeit thing? Or perhaps they are compound alchemical symbols to denote alloy?

Helleri, while we have not found a match to the distinctive marking on Evgeny's remarkable sword, it has been a great discussion here and some intriguing ideas.
As someone who has been nearly obsessively interested in markings on swords for more years than I can estimate, I wanted to say I like your thinking on this. In mentioning 'cattle brand marks' ....some years ago I was involved in studying markings found on Sudanese 'kaskara' of the 19thc. +

The idea of their perhaps being linked to cattle brands (various tribes were cattle herders) came to mind, and I found resources on this practice in some degree. While unable to find any direct connection documented, the similarities were compelling in many cases.

Even more fascinating were notes that some 'cattle brands' could be plausibly related to certain Egyptian heiroglyphics, which are of course of great antiquity.

As Victrix has noted, symbols have often become the markings used by tribes or persons as visual identifiers since ancient times. I recall fascinating works by Iaroslav Lebedynsky on the 'tamgas' of the tribes of the Steppes, as well as the brilliant work by Helmut Nickel, describing these.
These markings, sometimes derived from devices used on standards carried by tribes as identifiers in battle (precursors of flags and guidons) eventually became developed into the charges and devices used in heraldry, in these cases particularly Polish and other East European.

The purposes of these markings on many examples of weaponry through many contexts is of course speculative, and even more subjective are the possibilities of sources they might be drawn from. However investigations in comparing instances and examples can often present pretty compelling and amazing plausibility.

In accord with examples shown in Wagner (1967) and others, it seems this wonderful sword is most likely East European by its character. It would be fantastic to find a corroborating match to this deeply stamped marking, and as always, .....the search goes on!

[Evgeny_K]

In addition to the marking already shown, there are some symbols on the blade inlaid with copper (?).