29th November 2019, 01:32 PM | #2 |
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Evgeny, this truly is a beauty! and while I cannot place the deeply stamped mark as yet, I am inclined toward an Eastern European origin for the sword. I have seen the pommel type but need to check further. Hopefully more advanced members will offer insights, but I will surely keep looking myself.
Any notes you might add as far as possible provenance or findings thus far in your research? |
29th November 2019, 04:14 PM | #3 |
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Jim, thank you for reply. As I know this sword/saber was found somewhere nearby the former Moldova principality. Unfortunately I do not have more details.
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29th November 2019, 06:19 PM | #4 | |
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The best bet is going to be guys like Jasper, who know from hands on experience, these kinds of markings not usually in these references. I look forward to hearing from him and anyone else who might have seen this mark, but continue looking and hope to learn more on this sabre type. Thank you very much for posting this and the information. |
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29th November 2019, 06:50 PM | #5 |
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Thank you, Jim! I hope that together we can find out what this marking is.
I forgot to mention that there is an inlaid inscription on the blade that looks like: "E ... + X". |
30th November 2019, 12:46 AM | #6 |
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You bet Evgeny! Actually I have been working on this all day, and dragged out every resource I have on hand.
While I could not find an exact match, I not reluctant to express my thoughts based on the information I could find. I enjoy researching from examples such as yours as it is a learning experience. If the 'experts' come in and correct my observations, then all the better It would appear from info in Wagner (1967) that your saber (hiebmesser) is likely of German, E.European origin and likely 16th century by the form and character as seen in the images. This was of course a transitional period and diffusion of blades and styles moved in all directions regionally, especially with mercenary forces and colonization. The curved blade with yelman such as yours is known in Bohemia in 16th c. but these type weapons were well known for burghers earlier. Hungary and Balkans were populated by Germans, so the German form would not be surprising with Moldava provenance as you note. The pommel reminds me of the schiavona types though not the exact same and these are known to have come from Hungarian swords of these periods into Dalmatian regions. With the marking, I went through everything, Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Kinman, Gardner, Wagner, etc. and no EXACT match. However I found comparisons similar in styling with joined geometric designs, in a sigil like fashion, and the split foot (tails) is apparently used in Milan situated marks. Otherwise the design resembles early Passau type markings of 1520s-60s. It is tempting to consider this sword may be of S. German origin to East Europe of 16th century, with character of earlier straight blade swords (Oakeshott type III) in the hilt with a curved blade favored in E. Europe. The use of blade inscriptions is fascinating and it would be good to make this one out. I wonder if your mark may have been latten filled. The marking may be a sundry example which may have incorporated any of the elements of others circulating in these times, and possibly by armorers outfitting mercenary forces in Passau for one. These and other regional locations had blades, swords and other arms from makers in Solingen and Styrian sources which remain unrecorded as far as markings in many cases. Sorry unable to find a match, but I think the rest of the detail is somewhat plausible as far as the sword overall. Authentication is of course best determined with hands on examination and analysis. Looks like a great piece !!! |
30th November 2019, 09:56 AM | #7 |
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Yes interesting sword. The National Museum of Hungary has a large number of swords with similar pommels. I understand that these swords were mostly ordered and imported to Hungarian lands (much larger area in those days) from N.Italy and S.Germany and Austria. Sometimes the swords are called Schiavonesca (suggesting Slavic use) although these tend to have S shaped quillons. As Jim mentions there were lots of mercenaries active in the region in those days.
I note that the mark is in relief with sunk background which must be unusual except for Spanish sword marks? I normally see this mostly on halberds. |
30th November 2019, 11:33 AM | #8 |
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Evgeny, can you show as the whole sword, clean as it is now ?
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1st December 2019, 04:44 PM | #9 | |
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As you mention, that sunken cartouche punzone style does recall the Spanish method, and it seems those influences well diffused into provincial regions of that empire. With weaponry of these times, it does seem that these kinds of stamps would be placed on the various forms provided by suppliers in centers frequented by mercenary forces so marks on polearms perhaps might have been applied to swords brought into these centers. It would seem that expanding the search for comparisons to this mark into the broader scope of arms, including guns, may give us more options. |
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1st December 2019, 05:55 PM | #10 |
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Although I could not find an identical mark in Staffan Kinman’s excellent European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks (2015) I found examples of the sunken cartouche punzone marks as Jim calls it. There are other similar marks in the book from Munich and Passau.
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1st December 2019, 06:53 PM | #11 |
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Jim, Victrix, thank you for the great analysis!
Last edited by Evgeny_K; 1st December 2019 at 07:45 PM. |
1st December 2019, 06:58 PM | #12 | |
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12th December 2019, 12:33 AM | #13 |
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These marks seem to be serif and somewhat random or unpredictable in their form. I wonder if this was meant to act in a similar fashion the cattle brand marks which were designed to ward against being modified. In the case of cattle branding it was an anti theft thing. In the case of blade making perhaps it's an anti counterfeit thing? Or perhaps they are compound alchemical symbols to denote alloy?
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12th December 2019, 09:01 AM | #14 | |
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12th December 2019, 12:02 PM | #15 | |
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May i drigess a little ?
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, |
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13th December 2019, 09:17 AM | #16 | |
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13th December 2019, 02:35 PM | #17 | |
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Whether brought by the Visigods or the Vikings, a current conviction, is hard to say; we have had countless races passing or staying over here. |
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21st March 2020, 10:01 PM | #18 | |
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Here it is. Whole length is 107 cm. |
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22nd March 2020, 12:05 PM | #19 |
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Great work ... and great sword; thank you for sharing, Evgeny .
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22nd March 2020, 03:04 PM | #20 | |
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As someone who has been nearly obsessively interested in markings on swords for more years than I can estimate, I wanted to say I like your thinking on this. In mentioning 'cattle brand marks' ....some years ago I was involved in studying markings found on Sudanese 'kaskara' of the 19thc. + The idea of their perhaps being linked to cattle brands (various tribes were cattle herders) came to mind, and I found resources on this practice in some degree. While unable to find any direct connection documented, the similarities were compelling in many cases. Even more fascinating were notes that some 'cattle brands' could be plausibly related to certain Egyptian heiroglyphics, which are of course of great antiquity. As Victrix has noted, symbols have often become the markings used by tribes or persons as visual identifiers since ancient times. I recall fascinating works by Iaroslav Lebedynsky on the 'tamgas' of the tribes of the Steppes, as well as the brilliant work by Helmut Nickel, describing these. These markings, sometimes derived from devices used on standards carried by tribes as identifiers in battle (precursors of flags and guidons) eventually became developed into the charges and devices used in heraldry, in these cases particularly Polish and other East European. The purposes of these markings on many examples of weaponry through many contexts is of course speculative, and even more subjective are the possibilities of sources they might be drawn from. However investigations in comparing instances and examples can often present pretty compelling and amazing plausibility. In accord with examples shown in Wagner (1967) and others, it seems this wonderful sword is most likely East European by its character. It would be fantastic to find a corroborating match to this deeply stamped marking, and as always, .....the search goes on! |
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22nd March 2020, 05:01 PM | #21 |
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In addition to the marking already shown, there are some symbols on the blade inlaid with copper (?).
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