Tibetan Metalwork Timeline

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:02 PM

The five examples of Tibetan metalwork are intended as a basic guide for establishing a timeline.

Tibet was strongly influenced by China as were many countries. We can use the style of decoration on datable items such as textiles or ceramics to assist in the dating on metalwork based on the style of the design.

The attached Tibetan saddle dates to 1500.....

rand

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:05 PM

the attached Tibetan saddle dates to circa 1600...........

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:08 PM

1700 Tibetan saddle....

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:12 PM

18th Century Tibetan Saddle, pierced ironwork covered with gold and silver koftgari.

rand

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:15 PM

19th Century Tibetan Saddle. Made from bronze covered with gold gilt.

rand

kai · 10th September 2007, 01:03 AM

Hello Rand,

Thanks for posting these examples!

BTW, are these from a similar area? I understand that Tibet always had quite distinct regions (with differing ethnic groups and vastly divergent influences from neighboring countries and/or immigrants) and I'd suppose that these were reflected in artwork?

Regards,
Kai

rand · 10th September 2007, 01:29 AM

Hi Kai,

Ususally the references for where a Tibetan example of pierced ironwork is from refer to the Derge Valley (pronounced Dur-gay) and even call it Derge work sometimes. More is being published about this type work now, there were also examles made in the Chinese workshops, including the royal workshops as gifts for Tibetan high ranking men. By the way this valley was usually in China.

These types of metalwork were not signed, not even pieces made for royalty, sometimes they were numbered in the Chinese Royal workshop. For that reason some objects are very datable to a particular ruler or reign.

There has been no difinitive study done that parallels Oakshotts, the "Archeology of Weapons" Sword. Where a systematic chronology of design has was determnined by camparisons to datable art, effigies, stained glass and archeology.

Would be more difficult in general with Tibetan art as similar designs were used over hundreds of years. Even so, different reigns with follow different styles that over time will eventually be in a chronological order.

Attched photo is a Chinese or tibetan saddle circa 1400...

This date is according to Donald Larocca, talked with him on the phone about and believe he thinks the early date attributed for this saddle a bit ambitious. But getting a theory out there to be criticized and fall or stand up is what its all about.....

rand

rand · 10th September 2007, 01:31 AM

Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate....

rand

rand · 10th September 2007, 01:46 AM

This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker.

You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen.

rand

dennee · 11th September 2007, 09:01 PM

Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.

rand · 12th September 2007, 12:15 AM

Hey Dennee,

Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant.

The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too.

The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work.

Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet...
http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

rand · 4th October 2007, 08:19 AM

this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment

http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

rand · 4th October 2007, 08:30 AM

Tibetan Sadddle Circa 1700....

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2007, 06:39 PM

Rand,
This thread is absolutely magnificent!!! An excellent presentation on such an esoteric topic, and represents outstanding application in the systematic study of not only ethnographic material culture, but in our case, weapons as well.
I agree with you on Oakeshott's system of cataloging swords which provided a most definitive benchmark for identification and future study in a systematic reference. While these set the pace for the very early sword hilts, A.V.B. Norman also used artwork to similar advantage in his work on the smallsword and rapier hilts.

Thank you for sharing the work you're doing on this! I very much appreciate getting to learn more on Tibetan material culture, which has had little available information at all until Mr. LaRocca's book came out. I think its great that you're continuing in expanding the base of knowledge, especially with such great detail.
Please keep up the good work, I'm hooked!!!

All the best,
Jim

rand · 4th October 2007, 07:51 PM

Hello Jim,

When you look at how the geography of a country can change over the century's, you start to grasp how profound the influences from neighboring areas are. From looking at the maps posted above, you can plainly see how immense Tibet was from 700-900 AD, even larger than China during that period and no longer land locked.

The attached photo's are of what in my opinion is a Chinese sword guard from the royal workshops of the 17-18th century. It is pierced iron, covered first with silver koftgari overlay followed by gold on top of the silver. If you look closely at the wear points you will see the silver showing through. The design has a dragon entwined in a vegetal circular motif.

http://chineseswordguard.blogspot.com/
(if anyone can resize and post these on this thread please do)

You can see how very similar Chinese and Tibetan art is at times. This type of similarity exists in many cross cultures, Indian and Persian, Poland and Hungary are other examples of this.

Do like Donald LaRooca's book, "Warriors of the Himalayas". It was an immense subject to cover especially over a time span of six centuries. Am sure future work will be done in greater detail to better define some of the time periods and LaRooca's work will most likely be the standard for others to build from. Even George Cameron Stone acknowledged that his work (Stones Glossary) would have flaws in places, that is was to be used as a guide, a rather poignant and knowledgable remark make undertanding the depth of such a mass subject.

rand

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2007, 07:24 AM

I very much agree Rand. As has often been noted, weapon diffusion has no geographic boundaries and the influences that appear in varying degree can often reflect particular changes in the history of countries or regions. Your example of Chinese and Tibetan art similarity is well placed and we have seen many examples of hybridization in ethnographic weapons, in fact that to me is one of the most exciting aspects of this field of study.

You are the first person I have known to cite that passage in Stone. It often seems that many delight in finding flaws in the work of authors without realizing that few of them have considered theirs to be the final word on the subject. Most authors on arms and armor expect flaws to be revealed as further evidence is found and research continues. Stone was encouraging this as he hoped that others would follow in his path and that his work would serve as the venerable benchmark that it has.

9th September 2007, 07:02 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tibetan Metalwork Timeline The five examples of Tibetan metalwork are intended as a basic guide for establishing a timeline. Tibet was strongly influenced by China as were many countries. We can use the style of decoration on datable items such as textiles or ceramics to assist in the dating on metalwork based on the style of the design. The attached Tibetan saddle dates to 1500..... rand Attached Images

9th September 2007, 07:05 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Circa 1600 Tibetan Saddle the attached Tibetan saddle dates to circa 1600........... Attached Images

9th September 2007, 07:08 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Circa 1700 Tibetan Saddle 1700 Tibetan saddle.... Attached Images

9th September 2007, 07:12 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	18th Century Tibetan Saddle 18th Century Tibetan Saddle, pierced ironwork covered with gold and silver koftgari. rand Attached Images

9th September 2007, 07:15 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	19th Century Tibetan Saddle 19th Century Tibetan Saddle. Made from bronze covered with gold gilt. rand Attached Images

10th September 2007, 01:03 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Rand, Thanks for posting these examples! BTW, are these from a similar area? I understand that Tibet always had quite distinct regions (with differing ethnic groups and vastly divergent influences from neighboring countries and/or immigrants) and I'd suppose that these were reflected in artwork? Regards, Kai

10th September 2007, 01:29 AM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Derge Valley Hi Kai, Ususally the references for where a Tibetan example of pierced ironwork is from refer to the Derge Valley (pronounced Dur-gay) and even call it Derge work sometimes. More is being published about this type work now, there were also examles made in the Chinese workshops, including the royal workshops as gifts for Tibetan high ranking men. By the way this valley was usually in China. These types of metalwork were not signed, not even pieces made for royalty, sometimes they were numbered in the Chinese Royal workshop. For that reason some objects are very datable to a particular ruler or reign. There has been no difinitive study done that parallels Oakshotts, the "Archeology of Weapons" Sword. Where a systematic chronology of design has was determnined by camparisons to datable art, effigies, stained glass and archeology. Would be more difficult in general with Tibetan art as similar designs were used over hundreds of years. Even so, different reigns with follow different styles that over time will eventually be in a chronological order. Attched photo is a Chinese or tibetan saddle circa 1400... This date is according to Donald Larocca, talked with him on the phone about and believe he thinks the early date attributed for this saddle a bit ambitious. But getting a theory out there to be criticized and fall or stand up is what its all about..... rand Attached Images Last edited by rand; 10th September 2007 at 07:02 AM.

10th September 2007, 01:31 AM	#8
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Circa 1300 saddle plate Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate.... rand Attached Images

10th September 2007, 01:46 AM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Chinese Saddle This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker. You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen. rand Attached Images

11th September 2007, 09:01 PM	#10
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.

12th September 2007, 12:15 AM	#11
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tibetan Metalwork Hey Dennee, Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant. The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too. The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work. Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet... http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand

4th October 2007, 08:19 AM	#12
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tibetan Map Timelines this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand Attached Images

4th October 2007, 08:30 AM	#13
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tibetan Saddle Circa 1700 Tibetan Sadddle Circa 1700.... Attached Images

4th October 2007, 06:39 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Rand, This thread is absolutely magnificent!!! An excellent presentation on such an esoteric topic, and represents outstanding application in the systematic study of not only ethnographic material culture, but in our case, weapons as well. I agree with you on Oakeshott's system of cataloging swords which provided a most definitive benchmark for identification and future study in a systematic reference. While these set the pace for the very early sword hilts, A.V.B. Norman also used artwork to similar advantage in his work on the smallsword and rapier hilts. Thank you for sharing the work you're doing on this! I very much appreciate getting to learn more on Tibetan material culture, which has had little available information at all until Mr. LaRocca's book came out. I think its great that you're continuing in expanding the base of knowledge, especially with such great detail. Please keep up the good work, I'm hooked!!! All the best, Jim

4th October 2007, 07:51 PM	#15
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Geography of Country's Hello Jim, When you look at how the geography of a country can change over the century's, you start to grasp how profound the influences from neighboring areas are. From looking at the maps posted above, you can plainly see how immense Tibet was from 700-900 AD, even larger than China during that period and no longer land locked. The attached photo's are of what in my opinion is a Chinese sword guard from the royal workshops of the 17-18th century. It is pierced iron, covered first with silver koftgari overlay followed by gold on top of the silver. If you look closely at the wear points you will see the silver showing through. The design has a dragon entwined in a vegetal circular motif. http://chineseswordguard.blogspot.com/ (if anyone can resize and post these on this thread please do) You can see how very similar Chinese and Tibetan art is at times. This type of similarity exists in many cross cultures, Indian and Persian, Poland and Hungary are other examples of this. Do like Donald LaRooca's book, "Warriors of the Himalayas". It was an immense subject to cover especially over a time span of six centuries. Am sure future work will be done in greater detail to better define some of the time periods and LaRooca's work will most likely be the standard for others to build from. Even George Cameron Stone acknowledged that his work (Stones Glossary) would have flaws in places, that is was to be used as a guide, a rather poignant and knowledgable remark make undertanding the depth of such a mass subject. rand

5th October 2007, 07:24 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I very much agree Rand. As has often been noted, weapon diffusion has no geographic boundaries and the influences that appear in varying degree can often reflect particular changes in the history of countries or regions. Your example of Chinese and Tibetan art similarity is well placed and we have seen many examples of hybridization in ethnographic weapons, in fact that to me is one of the most exciting aspects of this field of study. You are the first person I have known to cite that passage in Stone. It often seems that many delight in finding flaws in the work of authors without realizing that few of them have considered theirs to be the final word on the subject. Most authors on arms and armor expect flaws to be revealed as further evidence is found and research continues. Stone was encouraging this as he hoped that others would follow in his path and that his work would serve as the venerable benchmark that it has.