Pamor question

Jeff Pringle · 7th June 2007, 07:49 AM

What would you call a pamor that looked like this:

Rick · 7th June 2007, 02:05 PM

Could we see the entire blade Jeff ?

cahaya · 7th June 2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

What would you call a pamor that looked like this:

Hai...
the pamor for me: is more like ganggeng kanyut

cahaya

Raden Usman Djogja · 7th June 2007, 11:21 PM

Is that a keris? Jeff, please show it completely.

Rick · 8th June 2007, 03:44 AM

The spots on the filed edge are something new to me.

Where's the core?
Is this blade all pamor?

Jeff Pringle · 8th June 2007, 04:00 PM

Sorry for the confusion, no this in not a keris, but a test I did to see how a specific keris pamor is created. The spots along the edge are a transient phenomenon, related to air bubbles sticking to the blade in the quench, and should be ignored, if possible. Only the center of the blade is patterned.
I don’t know about you guys, but when I see a pamor one of the things I start to do is try to figure out the sequence of forging operations that lead to the various patterns, and that discussion of Walang Sinudhuk ( http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4577 ) a couple weeks ago got me wondering about it and a couple closely related pamor - at least, closely related in terms of how Tammens drew them – were created. The discussion brought up various drawings that were more or less clear from a “finding out the process” perspective, but two very different methods are clearly implicated, one in the first couple drawings and the photo I found (which look very different, but which all imply a particular metal manipulation), and a second in the rest. Ganggeng kanyut looks as if it was made by a different process as well, so if that is what this pattern is saying, I’m way outside the ballpark, in my estimation of how the pamor metal gets manipulated to create walang sinudhuk. I’m also curious about how walang sinudhuk and dadung muntir are related, since they should both be pamor over a core steel, correct? How are they different, in your opinion, and/or which references give accurate depictions of them?

But I think I muddied the waters by using fewer layers, and doing more cross-wise forging than you’d typically get in a keris, so the pattern is stretched in a way that makes it look less like the target pattern I was going for.

Marcokeris · 9th June 2007, 06:46 PM

Jeff
your pamor is like this western damasc (the picture is from the spectacular book damascus steel by M. Sachse)

Rick · 9th June 2007, 07:34 PM

I know that this will probably sound stupid;

,but couldn't one try to figure out pamor types by trying to produce them with polymer clays of contrasting colors?
It would save a lot of fuel for the forge .

lemmythesmith · 9th June 2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I know that this will probably sound stupid;

,but couldn't one try to figure out pamor types by trying to produce them with polymer clays of contrasting colors?
It would save a lot of fuel for the forge .

I've used childrens modelling clay to work out Damascus patterns many times, the trick is to put the "billet" in the fridge so when you cut into it to produce the patterns it doesn't smear into itself. Pamor development from the comfort of your armchair!

ganjawulung · 10th June 2007, 05:57 AM

Hi Jeff, Lemmi and All,

I'rather call jeff's pamor as "lar gangsir" (mole cricket's wing). Compare with the 2nd photo below. And not the "kupu tarung" (fighting butterflies) in the first photo... Did you make it machinally? Or handmade, Jeff?

Ganjawulung

Jeff Pringle · 10th June 2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

your pamor is like this western damasc

Really? In what way? What similarities do you see?
Sachse's book is a great overview of patterned steel, he really did a great job of hitting most of the historical and cultural patterned steel touchstones.

Quote:

couldn't one figure out pamor types by trying to produce them with polymer clays of contrasting colors?

Hey, if I wanted to be a ceramicist, I'd work with clay, alright?!?

I have used this method, but really, it's more fun to do it in steel.

Quote:

"lar gangsir" (mole cricket's wing). Compare with the 2nd photo below. And not the "kupu tarung" (fighting butterflies)

Ganjawulung - it is hand-hammered, but interestingly, the first photo you posted looks to be made the same way (or rather, in a similar way - there is an additional operation going on in the kupu tarung, perhaps, but both are based on twisting twisted bars together, from the look of it) as my test piece, the second not. I definitely think forging in the double-fuller has confused matters, and will have to make up a bit of steel with more layers, and make it into a blade that is shaped in a more traditional keris way to get a clearer read on the pattern...
Thanks for all the input!!

Megat_Alam_Syah · 29th June 2007, 05:40 AM

hi! i'm new to this forum and also new among the classic weapons enthusiast. i'm from the state of terengganu and recently visit a distant relative who happen to own a keris. it was handed down for generations from father to eldest son. he show me the keris and from there my interest grew. though i came from the land where the keris orginated, i shamefully say i know almost nothing about it and i'm amazed at many of forumers here who, from distant land, knows more about keris then many of us here in Nusantara.

i have a question about pamor. is it possible to create a certain design, say an inscription or something using pamor, or is the pamor design are happen to be by chance?

David · 29th June 2007, 09:33 PM

Weclome to the forum Megat Alam Syah. I encourge you to make use of this forums search feaure. I am sure you will find many old threads to interest you.
The answer to your question is yes it is possible and i believe that an example was recently posted so take a look in the recent threads...or maybe that person would be so kind as to provide a link or repost the picture.

Alam Shah · 30th June 2007, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megat_Alam_Syah

... i have a question about pamor. is it possible to create a certain design, say an inscription or something using pamor, or is the pamor design are happen to be by chance?

Hi Megat, welcome to the forum... I suggest you look up these...

pamor tiban, pamor rekan,
pamor mlumlah, pamor miring...
Also have a look at "Keris in the Malay World" (in VCD format), by
Kuala Lumpur: Dept. of Museums and Antiquities, Ministry of Culture, Arts & Tourism, [2002]

In the videodisc, there are segments on how pamor inscriptions are made.
These should get you started...

Megat_Alam_Syah · 2nd July 2007, 02:33 AM

i'll check it out. thanks!

7th June 2007, 07:49 AM	#1
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Pamor question What would you call a pamor that looked like this: Attached Images

8th June 2007, 04:00 PM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Sorry for the confusion, no this in not a keris, but a test I did to see how a specific keris pamor is created. The spots along the edge are a transient phenomenon, related to air bubbles sticking to the blade in the quench, and should be ignored, if possible. Only the center of the blade is patterned. I don’t know about you guys, but when I see a pamor one of the things I start to do is try to figure out the sequence of forging operations that lead to the various patterns, and that discussion of Walang Sinudhuk ( http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4577 ) a couple weeks ago got me wondering about it and a couple closely related pamor - at least, closely related in terms of how Tammens drew them – were created. The discussion brought up various drawings that were more or less clear from a “finding out the process” perspective, but two very different methods are clearly implicated, one in the first couple drawings and the photo I found (which look very different, but which all imply a particular metal manipulation), and a second in the rest. Ganggeng kanyut looks as if it was made by a different process as well, so if that is what this pattern is saying, I’m way outside the ballpark, in my estimation of how the pamor metal gets manipulated to create walang sinudhuk. I’m also curious about how walang sinudhuk and dadung muntir are related, since they should both be pamor over a core steel, correct? How are they different, in your opinion, and/or which references give accurate depictions of them? But I think I muddied the waters by using fewer layers, and doing more cross-wise forging than you’d typically get in a keris, so the pattern is stretched in a way that makes it look less like the target pattern I was going for. Attached Images

9th June 2007, 06:46 PM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Jeff your pamor is like this western damasc (the picture is from the spectacular book damascus steel by M. Sachse) Attached Images

10th June 2007, 05:57 AM	#10
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Kupu Tarung and Lar Gangsir Hi Jeff, Lemmi and All, I'rather call jeff's pamor as "lar gangsir" (mole cricket's wing). Compare with the 2nd photo below. And not the "kupu tarung" (fighting butterflies) in the first photo... Did you make it machinally? Or handmade, Jeff? Ganjawulung Attached Images

7th June 2007, 02:05 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Could we see the entire blade Jeff ?

7th June 2007, 11:21 PM	#4
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Is that a keris? Jeff, please show it completely.

8th June 2007, 03:44 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The spots on the filed edge are something new to me. Where's the core? Is this blade all pamor?

9th June 2007, 07:34 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I know that this will probably sound stupid; ,but couldn't one try to figure out pamor types by trying to produce them with polymer clays of contrasting colors? It would save a lot of fuel for the forge .

29th June 2007, 05:40 AM	#12
Megat_Alam_Syah Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Currently in Malay Peninsular Posts: 4	hi! i'm new to this forum and also new among the classic weapons enthusiast. i'm from the state of terengganu and recently visit a distant relative who happen to own a keris. it was handed down for generations from father to eldest son. he show me the keris and from there my interest grew. though i came from the land where the keris orginated, i shamefully say i know almost nothing about it and i'm amazed at many of forumers here who, from distant land, knows more about keris then many of us here in Nusantara. i have a question about pamor. is it possible to create a certain design, say an inscription or something using pamor, or is the pamor design are happen to be by chance?

29th June 2007, 09:33 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Weclome to the forum Megat Alam Syah. I encourge you to make use of this forums search feaure. I am sure you will find many old threads to interest you. The answer to your question is yes it is possible and i believe that an example was recently posted so take a look in the recent threads...or maybe that person would be so kind as to provide a link or repost the picture.

2nd July 2007, 02:33 AM	#15
Megat_Alam_Syah Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Currently in Malay Peninsular Posts: 4	i'll check it out. thanks!