foreign influence in european arns production?

[ausjulius]

i was woundering rely to what exstent outside influence effected the development of european weaponry,it is clear that for the most part european weapons have influence the outside would greatly since the 8th or 9th century.. particulary in the near east,
what i am woundering how much influence did europe have from the outside....
i have seen in the past record from the 13 centuary of arabs or persians employed by the english kings to make crossbows.. and composite horn crossbow prods ...

i wounder how much more foreigners there were in the past in europe involved in such work or in other crafts maybe not weapon related..

i guess the bow and sword making in the baltic and in poland must have been influence alot by tatar imergration but i wounder how much.. seems historical records show at one point 105 of the lithuanian population were tatars.. and in poland a large amount also..
i wounder if there was any non european populations in european cities involved in trade or crafts. aspecialy weapons, in the middle ages and what effect they produced...

[Emanuel]

Hi Ausjulius

I understand there was quite a bit of eastern Tatar, Persian and Ottoman influence throughout Eastern Europe, particualrly Hungary and Poland.

I can speak for Romania. Many sabres were of Ottoman type, and many of our volabulary for arms and armour comes from the Turks. A mace is called a "buzdugan", a Turkish word, while axe is "topor" - a cognate of the Indian "tabar" I think.

There were a few great discussion here in the past about east European arms. Forum member Michal wrote a good deal about Polish arms and armour and the hussars, and he gave a presentation at Timonium a few years ago.

As for non-European populations in Europe during the Middle Ages, consider that at the time non-European generally meant non-Christian, likely Muslim, and therefore enemy. I don't think we would many Muslim craftsmen in Europe at the time. I imagine there might have been Armenian craftsmen...Ariel, among other members knwo a gerat deal more about this.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

i was woundering rely to what exstent outside influence effected the development of european weaponry,it is clear that for the most part european weapons have influence the outside would greatly since the 8th or 9th century.. particulary in the near east,
what i am woundering how much influence did europe have from the outside....

Specifically, in which way european swords influenced the rest of the world in the 8th-9th Century? To begin with, eastern gothic swords were influenced by the chinese Han. You can find more references in Oakeshott´s The Archaeology of Weapons. Manolo references are good. Armenian influences over polish sabres are also important. Mamelukes had some role, also. The pattern welding made on swords after the crusades to this days, made originally as an intent to reproduce the damascus steel, is a result, in a way, of eastern influences. The jineta spanish swords, were the result of berber influences. All european sabres from the 18th-19th Century, were the result of the ottoman influences mentioned by Manolo. The jineta style of fighting used by the spanish cavalry since the 16th Century, as important as the Tercio´s battle formations and tactics in giving Spain the supremacy over occidental europe, were also the result of berber influence. Damascening swords was the result of moor influences. Venetian curved short swords of several kinds are the result of eastern influences. There were yataghans made in the Balkans and Greece, which in turn influenced some italian style of swords. Just remember that part of Europe was in the hands of the ottoman turks until relatively very recent times ....I can´t recall some more examples in this moment, but I´m sure you can find more if you make a search.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo

[Lee]

Current thinking in archeometallurgy circles is that some of the Ulfberth inlaid swords of the Viking Age were made from crucible steels imported from far to the east.

A summary of the lecture mentioned by Emanuel on Eastern Influences on Polish Arms can be found at the link.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent examples brought up here!!!
The influence of Turkish sabres profoundly influenced the styles of swords as well as tactics used by European cavalry, and specifically those of the 'sipahi' to the development of light cavalry. The often flamboyant fashions and sabres definitely influenced the Hungarians and Poles and of course these fashions were one of the key influences in most of Europe.

As Gen. Le Marchant sought to improve the light sabres of the British cavalry as he close prototypes for consideration, in addition to those of the Austrians were also the shamshir and kilij. I have seen many M1796 light cavalry sabres with extreme parabolic curves and the extended yelman. Throughout the late 18th into early 19th century, these influences remained present in varying degree, especially in colonial environments.

The Mamluks are one of the best examples, and after the campaigns in Egypt both the British and the French were compelled to design sabres for thier officers following those of the impressive Mamluk sabres. These were well known in French Napoleonic sabres, and became the British general officers 'mameluke' sabres of pattern 1831. The style became the basis for the mameluke sabres of the U.S. Marine Corps officers, still proudly worn in their traditional uniform.

There are certainly many examples of various ethnographic weapons influencing the styles and fashions of European weapons, including these, and the paper prepared and delivered by Michael was outstanding! and reading that will provide wonderful perspective on this very topic.

Best regards,
Jim

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Specifically, in which way european swords influenced the rest of the world in the 8th-9th Century? To begin with, eastern gothic swords were influenced by the chinese Han. You can find more references in Oakeshott´s The Archaeology of Weapons. Manolo references are good. Armenian influences over polish sabres are also important. Mamelukes had some role, also. The pattern welding made on swords after the crusades to this days, made originally as an intent to reproduce the damascus steel, is a result, in a way, of eastern influences. The jineta spanish swords, were the result of berber influences. All european sabres from the 18th-19th Century, were the result of the ottoman influences mentioned by Manolo. The jineta style of fighting used by the spanish cavalry since the 16th Century, as important as the Tercio´s battle formations and tactics in giving Spain the supremacy over occidental europe, were also the result of berber influence. Damascening swords was the result of moor influences. Venetian curved short swords of several kinds are the result of eastern influences. There were yataghans made in the Balkans and Greece, which in turn influenced some italian style of swords. Just remember that part of Europe was in the hands of the ottoman turks until relatively very recent times ....I can´t recall some more examples in this moment, but I´m sure you can find more if you make a search.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo

beginning of the 9th century.. no sword specificaly, this is the time when europe started to develop arms more advanced in their production..
the beginning... is with viking swords comming into the middle east.. and 10 -11 centuary european techniques for making plate armor and then later techniques for polishing and grinding.. and later by the 1200s the lathes , planes and other working devices in europe were far better than those around
water ad wind powered devices .. ect ect...
and these influenced the near east greatly...
this was the biginning.. one has to remember europe outpased the rest of the world very quickly... one only has to look in 1300 there odds were even.. by 1600 it was quite uneven....
but these changes were from enternal conflict.. and didnt come about in the areas with conflict with non european oponants...... you didnt see huge advances in.. romania.. russia or serbia....
they stayed as they were in 10 centuary almost.... using the same weapons as their oponants.. but in holland ,sweden. england.. france and other parts of western and central europe things moved on very fast...
and then there was a transfer of these techniques east. but i wounder previously when the advancement was in reverse was there such an amount of transfer into europe.... there was some by information... but i wounder ow much was from direct contact,, such as tradesmen opperating in europe.

no doubt the crossbow making is one exsample..... but i wounder home many others there are?

[ausjulius]

so the topic seems to have sowed confusion........... i am more woundering about direct contact.. not copying a item for taste or seeing a technique and reproducing it,, but actual persons from one region working in another..
for exsample the mongols aquiring catholic monks for making mechnical machines and cannons and such in their eastern empire..
so monks from europe were taken to china and there they transfered their knowlage directly..
what i would wounder was the frequency of this happening in european lands...........

[TVV]

Interesting arguments, but can you back them with factual evidence?

Originally Posted by ausjulius

this was the biginning.. one has to remember europe outpased the rest of the world very quickly... one only has to look in 1300 there odds were even.. by 1600 it was quite uneven....

We are discussing arms technology, right? I personally fail to see any gap between the Ottomans and their European enemies during the 17th century - do you have any examples? Ottoman defeats can be attributed to things such as outdated tactics, poor command and the logistical nightmare of raising, maintaining and transporting an army from one end of the Empire to another, further worsened by internal problems. However, I certainly would not blame the Ottoman arms and armor for lack of Ottoman military success towards the end of the 1600s. Also, one needs to remember that during the second siege of Vienna, the capital of the Habsburgs was saved by Ian Sobieski and his hussars, whose arms and equipment was developed under heavy Eastern influence.

but these changes were from enternal conflict.. and didnt come about in the areas with conflict with non european oponants...... you didnt see huge advances in.. romania.. russia or serbia....
they stayed as they were in 10 centuary almost.... using the same weapons as their oponants..

If we are discussing the 13th and 14th centuries, prior to the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, one needs to remember that in the early 13th century a Bulgarian army composed of Bulgarians, Vlachs and Cumans dealt a heavy and ultimately fatal defeat to the Latin Crusaders, who had just captured Constantinople. In Russia, Alexander Nevsky was also quite successfull against Western foes, such as the Teutonic Order and the Kingdom of Sweden. Of course, I would not attribute those victories to any superior arms and armor that Eastern Europeans had compared to Western Knights, but to better tactics, developped in centuries of fighting Eatsern Armies.

As for Serbia, it rose to prominence in the 14th century, and its heavy cavalry was perhaps the strongest in the world by the end of the 1400s, as evidenced by the battle of Nicopolis, where Stefan Lazarevic and his cavalrymen decided the outcome. Apparently, the Serbs had more than adequate arms and armor to allow them to outclass and defeat the assortment of Western knights at the battlefield. And those certainly were not the same arms and armor that the Serbs used a few centuries earlier - archaeological finds and pictorial evidence suggests that the Serbs were capable of adopting the best in arms technology from the East and the West.

So personally, I fail to see any great European advantage in technology prior to the Industrial Revolution, which certainly tipped the balance in favor of industrialized countries. After that I completely agree that Europe influenced the military technology in the world, but seeking the roots of this success in the Middle Ages might be a bit stretching it, and come across as very eurocentric.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor!!! An absolutely magnificently thought out and written account of the geopolitical flux of these times. The complexity of the history of these areas and the Ottoman Empire have always seemed a bit formidable, and I've never been able to focus enough in that area of study to fully understand all of the components of this history. Your concise overview really helps, thank you so much.

Ausjulius, I think I missed the premise of the original question in that what you are looking for is not as much 'influence' from the 'East' on European arms and armour and that what you are trying to discover is instances of actual swordsmiths and armourers working in European centers.

That is an interesting question, which reminds me of the line from Kipling's famous ballad;

"...Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet".

Clearly this was not the case, especially with arms and armour, and with reference to influence, which is far more permeable in many perceptions than actual presence.

Your note on Catholic Monks working on cannons among the Mongols is an interesting anology, and I'd like to hear more on this. As to 'Eastern' (or foreign) craftsmen working in European production of arms, the only thing that readily comes to mind would be possibly the Armenians who were situated in the south of Poland in Lvov and Krakow. These skilled armourers were key in the adaption of Ottoman styles into the European armouries.

It would be difficult to say how prevalent the instance you are considering might be, as in post exploration colonization, the most common scenario was the export of European surplus and trade materials to these ecumenical locations. There was certainly always a supreme effort to capture the process of watered steel, wootz in blademaking centers, but as far as I know there was not documented presence of 'foreign' smiths in European locations.
Foreign weapons were often brought in as souveniers, and certainly there were efforts made to duplicate them, but again, typically and as far as I know ,not using foreign artisans.

While noting that these are my own perceptions, without further research, and I would be interested to hear of instances of 'foreign' presumably Eastern or Oriental armourers working in European locations.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

during the carolingian period, where not the frankish swords considered superior to those of the maghrib/middle east/byzantium by the muslims themselves and did not a brisk trade in frankish blades to muslim spain/sicily/maghrib exist, so much so that several popes issued edicts banning the sale of such weapons to the "infidels" over a period of a couple centuries?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by pallas

during the carolingian period, where not the frankish swords considered superior to those of the maghrib/middle east/byzantium by the muslims themselves and did not a brisk trade in frankish blades to muslim spain/sicily/maghrib exist, so much so that several popes issued edicts banning the sale of such weapons to the "infidels" over a period of a couple centuries?

Very good point Pallas! The Frankish swords were indeed considered of the highest quality, and the export of these blades is remarkable in the geographic scope covered. It seems at some earlier point, some of the processes used by the Celtibereans, and later by smiths in Andalusian regions were in some way transmitted to and incorporated into forging by the Franks. It is unclear whether these workers actually went to the Frankish regions to work, or whether the processes were diffused through trade and contact.
It does seem almost ironic that the Frankish swords eventually became so much more in demand.

Much of this is of course , not only the forging techniques, but the quality of the steel as well, which in many cases was simply a raw product imported, not involving foreign workers. In India, the wootz steel was of course readily available, but without the Persian smiths, the end product was quite different.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

FOUND IT!!!

While poring through loads of material on smallswords in quest of the elusive beaded hilt motif, in J.Aylward's " The Smallsword in England" (1945, p.57), on the smallsword hilts known as 'Tonquinese' (these are elsewhere also termed of the Peking style);

"...made originally in the Far East between 1710 and 1750 to the order of the Dutch East India Company it would seem that the ascription of the work to Tonquinese artists is hardly correct, for while Dampier, for instance, in his "Voyages" ("Dampiers Voyages" Ed. by John Mansfield, 1906) describes all the then manufacturers of Tonquin most closely, he says nothing at all about swords being made there, and it is a historical fact that the Dutch withdrew thier factory from Tonquin in 1707. It is most likely that these weapons were first made for the Dutch factory in Pekin, and it is known that afterwards,

the Company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam hilts of similar character which were fitted with blades made in Holland and in Solingen".

This is the first evidence I have found of 'foreign' workmen being brought into European centers, but it would not seem unusual to find instances elsewhere as well.

All best regards,
Jim

Addendum,
Just found in "Smallswords and Military Swords" (A.V.B. Norman, 1967),
"...Japanese craftsmen were also employed to make hilts for the European market; these were made of the black alloy of copper and gold called shakudo, and partly gilded".
It is noted further on a hilt in the Victoria and Albert Museum mounted by Jan Hosse of Amsterdam seems to be of a group of hilts made for the Dutch East India Company possibly in thier factory at Deshima in Japan".

[Samik]

I have an example that could be termed "eastern influence on western armour". I have already posted and discussed it on myarmoury forum
( http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17004 ) , but methinks that you would not mind if I'd shared it with you

This is from a Marble monument dedicated to György Serédy (dated 1549, although some historians date it later to 1557) that is located in a church (St.Egidius, basilica minor) in my hometown of Bardejov, Slovakia ( hope thats not being considered as a commercial but hey you are free to pay a visit if you wish )



I was told that Serédy's helmet is a burgonet. The one that I find most similar to it is this piece:



However, please note the presence of the "nasal bar" on Serédy's burgonet that is a feature apparently borrowed from the ottoman-turkish çiçak helmet:



Regards,
Samuel

[cornelistromp]

Hi All,

the earliest example I can recall is eastern looking sword (japanese) in the
maciejovski bible, French 1250 .

best regards

[Samik]

Hi cornelistromp,

Yeah its the infamous "macejowski’s glaive" , personally to me it looks like some sort of a glaive-polearm (hence the name i guess) that was hack off at the shaft. There were heated debates about the origin of the weapon on several other "arms n armour" oriented forums , but to no avail since no such "living" speciment was unearthed. Who knows maybye it was just the authors imagination (note also the man-at-arms that is hacked in half with his guts out , seems like an exeggaration to make the painting/battle more impresive)

[cornelistromp]

in the early 18thC black on the outside (if rubbed copperlike) hilts were imported from perhaps Tonkin to Holland.
the material was called black suassa and is an alloy of antimony, gold and copper.
al lot of chinese and japanese decorative features were on these shakudo hilts. it is certain that VOC (dutch east india company) was the sole importer.at the moment it is not yet known if the company only imported Hilts and sword mounts and that they were asembled in Holland or if blades were exported were all these parts were assembled in Deshima near Nagasaki.

it is unknown if eastern hilt smiths worked in Holland.

the shakudo hilts are of extreme high quality and workmanship.

best regards

[Gonzalo G]

I thought my words were very specific. I asked in which way european swords greatly influenced outside world in the 8th-9th Centuries. I am aware of the latter interactions, though it would be convenient to specify every one of them. I don´t believe frankish swords were considered superior to the made inside of the muslim empire. Al-Kindi mentions those swords, and not as superior. Arabs-moors just arrived to the iberic peninsula imported swords because they didn´t had their own manofacture already established, but latter they made their own swords which influenced the europeans. Charlemagne was the first to prohibit the export the frankish swords, and also byrnes, helmets, lances, and all the weaponry, as he was making a military revolution in european terms, and those weapons were neded by them. I don´t believe european production of steel was better than the one from India and maybe other places as Iran and the Middle East, until the 19th Century. Every bit of factual evidence must be considered in the revision of such interactions to avoid the happy (and ungrounded) statements made before by eurocentrist specialists. Just read Oakeshott saying that the scramasax was the ancestor of the szabla-saber, and the kopis the ancestor of the khukri...just because...
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

The wording in the original query of the thread is tricky. The 'influences' between east and west arms and armour is well known, profoundly represented and discussed and the subject of countless articles and books.

What is being sought is actual workmen from 'foreign' sources physically brought to the country to work in bladesmith or armourers shops.....much in the manner of the Solingen swordsmiths who were brought to England to work in what became the Hounslow swords, later the Shotley Bridge.

Obviously this is an example of Germany to England, and different Western nationalities. The question is were Chinese, Japanese, Persian, or other Middle East or Oriental craftsmen ever brought into European factories or shop of arms and armour.

Truly an interesting question, and clearly not a topic well covered in most of the literature.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Sorry, Ausjulius and Jim, as I said in other post, I save the pages and post my answers days latter, and sometimes I am completely out of phase.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Sorry, Ausjulius and Jim, as I said in other post, I save the pages and post my answers days latter, and sometimes I am completely out of phase.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo, please dont apologize, it is completely unnecessary. Actually, in reading your posts here, much as always on whatever topic, I am constantly amazed at your command of such esoteric history, and the detailed and well written material you add.
I think your perspective on these influences is outstanding, and you are never out of phase, but I wanted to direct to the other aspect of this topic as well, that of actual foreign presence in European workshops.

I have always admired your tenacity in your participation here, stay with it Gonzalo!!!

All the very best,
Jim