Need some opinion about this modern keris

Sepang · 7th December 2005, 05:02 AM

Need opinion from forumities about this modern keris, please.
Is this unusual keris ?

http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548896.html
http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548902.html
http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548906.html
http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548905.html

I do appreciate for your opinion.

nechesh · 7th December 2005, 03:39 PM

Yes Sepang, i would say that if this were an old keris this would be a rather rare dapor, but it is not a fantasy piece, this keris is based on actual old examples. The workmanship on this one appears pretty good on this one and i think a keris like this looks pretty swank in pamorless black iron.

Rick · 7th December 2005, 04:32 PM

Nice new work Sepang !
Good looking ukiran , great finish on the wrongko , and the pendok is quite pretty .
A very nice ensemble .

There is some very good stuff being made today ; it can be hard to find amongst all the ersatz 'antiques' .

Thank heavens no one tried to 'age' it .....

nechesh · 7th December 2005, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank heavens no one tried to 'age' it .....

I second that! I wish these guys would just understand that if they apply themselves properly they will find that there truly is a market for high quality new keris. These shouldn't be looked upon as "repros". This is a living art still, not a revival quite yet. To take a beautifully executed piece like this one and subject it to harsh acids to make it appear old would be such a shame. I would much rather grow old WITH a keris like this.

BluErf · 8th December 2005, 02:08 AM

I'm seeing more and more good new kerises these days which are not artificially aged. I think high-quality new kerises are beginning to find their niche in the world of keris. And they are usually more expensive than the old ones of equivalent quality. Some of these kerises are made with 'designer' modern steel such as D2, and tempered (can pick up a coin easily). So, they are not only beautiful, they are to some extent, functional too.

Rick · 8th December 2005, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I'm seeing more and more good new kerises these days which are not artificially aged. I think high-quality new kerises are beginning to find their niche in the world of keris. And they are usually more expensive than the old ones of equivalent quality. Some of these kerises are made with 'designer' modern steel such as D2, and tempered (can pick up a coin easily). So, they are not only beautiful, they are to some extent, functional too.

They certainly have their niche with me Kai wee .

Seriously , where else am I going to find affordable well executed rare dapurs and pamors ?
With the next one I receive I will have 5 excellent examples .

I can spot a faked antique a mile away after 9 years of collecting .
I have absolutely no idea why dealers try to perpetrate this crap when a good new piece will fetch as much or more money .

BluErf · 8th December 2005, 04:05 AM

I think there could be a shift in collecting emphasis. In the past, collectors wanted antique kerises, but now, there are collectors who would buy kerises for what they are - works of art.

BSMStar · 8th December 2005, 07:42 PM

My greatest hope is that these fine craftsmen are some how recognized and that the art is keep alive. Since Empu has such a special significance and meaning, maybe a new title should be invented for the "new masters" if this art. Then maybe we will see more master pieces produced and sold based on their inherent value rather than damaging them to look old.

A tree can only grow into the future by being firmly attached to its roots.

BluErf · 9th December 2005, 01:29 AM

I think some of these new mastersmiths don't want to be 'recognized'. They lead very low profile lives, and just want to concentrate on their art. So even if one had money, one may not be able to get kerises made by these mastersmiths.

Kiai Carita · 9th December 2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

My greatest hope is that these fine craftsmen are some how recognized and that the art is keep alive. Since Empu has such a special significance and meaning, maybe a new title should be invented for the "new masters" if this art. Then maybe we will see more master pieces produced and sold based on their inherent value rather than damaging them to look old.

A tree can only grow into the future by being firmly attached to its roots.

The seller of the above mentioned keris is a young Indonesian in Surabaya who realy loves keris and is dedicated to the wellfare of keris culture. He personaly knows alot of the quality keris makers in Jawa and Madura and he also posts on this forum. I personally have never met him but have bought three kerises from his website and I am in personal email contact with him and I believe that he would never knowingly mislead anyone about his wares. As an Indonesian I rarely trust my fellow countrymen in the market but this seller has dedication and knowledge.

He wants to keep the keris knowledge and culture alive and has lately been putting more and more high quality new keris up for sale. One problem: good new keris costs alot to make so you can purchase a mediocre old keris for half the price, and to many people are stil doing that. Actualy I should reiterate a previous post that it is ilegal to take old keris out of the country even though it is possible and easy to break the law without consequence. If more people give good dollar for new quality keris more Mpu will make good keris and when an individual consistently makes good keris he will eventually be recognized as an Mpu by society. We have the power to create Mpus!

Like all artists keris makers need patrons and in this globalized world the market can become the patron. For the sake of keris culture please demand that our friend in Surabaya put more and more good quality new keris up for sale and please be prepared to pay good money as if you were purchasing a contenporary oil painting. Congratulations for whoever has this splendid blade on hold!

Warm salams to all,
Kiai Carita.

nechesh · 9th December 2005, 04:34 PM

Kiai Carita is right, a new, high quality keris is not cheap to make and collectors must be willing to pay the price for them to keep the art alive. However, they do cost a whole lot less then their antique counterparts. If, for instance, the keris Sepang posted were old it would probably cost a small fortune. If i were seeking this finely crafted rare dapor this new keris would be the way i would have to go. However, i am for the most part interested in antique keris, but this has not stopped me from collecting a number of new keris based purely on their beauty and execution. Still, i will continue to collect old keris as my interest goes beyond the physical aspect of the material keris itself to a place of cultural, sociological and spiritual study. These qualities remain absent in new keris regardless of the level of craftsmanship. And if, as you say, it may not be exactly legal to remove old keris from Indonesia, it's not as if they are being stolen from the culture like certain antiqities of the ancient world (of Egypt, Greece, etc.) were by Europeans in the 18th and 19th century. Indonesians are willingly selling them for profit and since the alternative is that they would rust away in some forgotten draw somewhere, i have no pangs of guilt about collecting and preserving them.
As to whether or not we have the power to create new mpus, i think that might involve a new definition for the word mpu. From my understanding an mpu is more than just someone who is capable of making fine, high quality keris. He/she is also a priest of sorts, highly knowledgable of prayers and the magick necessary to bring "life" to a keris. It is also my understanding that an mpu must be designated as such by the kraton, not the people. So what power do we as collectors of keris (new or old) have in creating new mpus? This is not to take away from the great talents of some of these new master keris makers, but IMO the term mpu needs to remain in reserve for a very special and specific individual. Most of the keris we collect, whether new or old, were NOT made by mpus. Just because a keris is old, even very old, this is not to say it was mpu made. I don't see why it would be necessary to put the name on new keris makers (how ever good they might be) to convince us that their keris are worthy of collection. That, as in the case of the keris Sepang has posted, we can see with our own eyes. To believe that we have the power to appoint any of these new keris makers mpus seems both unreasonable and unnecessary to me.
BTW, i won't name sellers here as i think the swap forum is a far more appropriate place for advertisement, but there are in fact a number of honest, reputable sellers that have been offerring high quality new keris for quite some time. Hopefully the collecting world will be more accepting of them in the future.

Sepang · 9th December 2005, 09:06 PM

thank you for all opinion about this keris.
on first look, i interest with pundak setegal and ganja on this keris. but now i got more idea how to analyzing the keris. thank you all !
but i'm still waiting for more opinion about modern keris, not just about the keris which i posted the link at here.

7th December 2005, 05:02 AM	#1
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	Need some opinion about this modern keris Need opinion from forumities about this modern keris, please. Is this unusual keris ? http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548896.html http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548902.html http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548906.html http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/p23548905.html I do appreciate for your opinion.

8th December 2005, 07:42 PM	#8
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Empus of the Future My greatest hope is that these fine craftsmen are some how recognized and that the art is keep alive. Since Empu has such a special significance and meaning, maybe a new title should be invented for the "new masters" if this art. Then maybe we will see more master pieces produced and sold based on their inherent value rather than damaging them to look old. A tree can only grow into the future by being firmly attached to its roots.

9th December 2005, 04:34 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kiai Carita is right, a new, high quality keris is not cheap to make and collectors must be willing to pay the price for them to keep the art alive. However, they do cost a whole lot less then their antique counterparts. If, for instance, the keris Sepang posted were old it would probably cost a small fortune. If i were seeking this finely crafted rare dapor this new keris would be the way i would have to go. However, i am for the most part interested in antique keris, but this has not stopped me from collecting a number of new keris based purely on their beauty and execution. Still, i will continue to collect old keris as my interest goes beyond the physical aspect of the material keris itself to a place of cultural, sociological and spiritual study. These qualities remain absent in new keris regardless of the level of craftsmanship. And if, as you say, it may not be exactly legal to remove old keris from Indonesia, it's not as if they are being stolen from the culture like certain antiqities of the ancient world (of Egypt, Greece, etc.) were by Europeans in the 18th and 19th century. Indonesians are willingly selling them for profit and since the alternative is that they would rust away in some forgotten draw somewhere, i have no pangs of guilt about collecting and preserving them. As to whether or not we have the power to create new mpus, i think that might involve a new definition for the word mpu. From my understanding an mpu is more than just someone who is capable of making fine, high quality keris. He/she is also a priest of sorts, highly knowledgable of prayers and the magick necessary to bring "life" to a keris. It is also my understanding that an mpu must be designated as such by the kraton, not the people. So what power do we as collectors of keris (new or old) have in creating new mpus? This is not to take away from the great talents of some of these new master keris makers, but IMO the term mpu needs to remain in reserve for a very special and specific individual. Most of the keris we collect, whether new or old, were NOT made by mpus. Just because a keris is old, even very old, this is not to say it was mpu made. I don't see why it would be necessary to put the name on new keris makers (how ever good they might be) to convince us that their keris are worthy of collection. That, as in the case of the keris Sepang has posted, we can see with our own eyes. To believe that we have the power to appoint any of these new keris makers mpus seems both unreasonable and unnecessary to me. BTW, i won't name sellers here as i think the swap forum is a far more appropriate place for advertisement, but there are in fact a number of honest, reputable sellers that have been offerring high quality new keris for quite some time. Hopefully the collecting world will be more accepting of them in the future. Last edited by nechesh; 9th December 2005 at 07:47 PM.

9th December 2005, 09:06 PM	#12
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	thank you for all opinion about this keris. on first look, i interest with pundak setegal and ganja on this keris. but now i got more idea how to analyzing the keris. thank you all ! but i'm still waiting for more opinion about modern keris, not just about the keris which i posted the link at here. Last edited by Sepang; 10th December 2005 at 12:21 AM.

7th December 2005, 03:39 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Sepang, i would say that if this were an old keris this would be a rather rare dapor, but it is not a fantasy piece, this keris is based on actual old examples. The workmanship on this one appears pretty good on this one and i think a keris like this looks pretty swank in pamorless black iron.

7th December 2005, 04:32 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Nice new work Sepang ! Good looking ukiran , great finish on the wrongko , and the pendok is quite pretty . A very nice ensemble . There is some very good stuff being made today ; it can be hard to find amongst all the ersatz 'antiques' . Thank heavens no one tried to 'age' it .....

8th December 2005, 02:08 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I'm seeing more and more good new kerises these days which are not artificially aged. I think high-quality new kerises are beginning to find their niche in the world of keris. And they are usually more expensive than the old ones of equivalent quality. Some of these kerises are made with 'designer' modern steel such as D2, and tempered (can pick up a coin easily). So, they are not only beautiful, they are to some extent, functional too.

8th December 2005, 04:05 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I think there could be a shift in collecting emphasis. In the past, collectors wanted antique kerises, but now, there are collectors who would buy kerises for what they are - works of art.

9th December 2005, 01:29 AM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I think some of these new mastersmiths don't want to be 'recognized'. They lead very low profile lives, and just want to concentrate on their art. So even if one had money, one may not be able to get kerises made by these mastersmiths.