Killing elephants with swords

[George Armstrong Custer]

The Central-African-born novelist Wilbur Smith is justly renowned for the background research which lends historical accuracy to those of his novels set in historical periods. His new bestseller, The Triumph of the Sun is set during the 1884/5 siege of Khartoum in the Sudan by the Dervish forces of the Mahdi. At one point Smith describes an elephant hunt which is conducted by Emir Osman Atalan, en route to Khartoum from the Red Sea Hills. The modus operandi of the hunters is astonishing - and the descriptions of their weapons and their devotion to them is instructive:

'[Emir Osman] held the scabbard of his broadsword clamped under his right knee against the saddle. The hilt was exquisitely fashioned from rhinoceros horn with a patina like amber, and the blade was inlaid with gold and silver.......While the horses rested the aggagiers took down their swords and shields from where they were tied to the saddles. They sat in a small, companionable group in the sunlight, and began to strop their blades on the cured giraffe hide of their shields. The hide of the giraffe was the toughest of all wild game, yet not so heavy as that of the buffalo or hippopotamus. The shields were round targes, unadorned with image or emblem, marked only by the blade of the enemy, or the claw and fang of the chase. Blade-honing was a pastime with which they filled their leisure, as much a part of their life as breathing.......There was silence except for the susurration of steel on leather. They paused in this endless activity only to test an edge with a thumb. Each blade was about three and a half feet in length, and double-edged. It was a replica of the broadswords of the crusaders that, centuries before, had so impressed the Saracens before the walls of Acre and Jerusalem. The most treasured blades had been forged from the steel of Solingen, and handed down from father to son. The marvellous temper of this metal imparted immense power to the blade, and it was capable of taking an edge like that of a surgeon's scalpel - the lightest stroke would split hide and hair, flesh and sinew to the deepest bone. A full stroke could divide an enemy at the waist, cutting him in two as effortlessly as though he were a ripe pomegranate. The scabbards were fashioned from two flat pieces of soft mimosa wood, held together and covered by the skin of an elephant's ear, dried hard and strong as iron. On the flat of the scabbard were two raised leather projections about twelve inches apart, which held the weapon securely under the horseman's thigh. Even at full gallop, it would not flap and bounce in the ungainly manner of the swords of European cavalry...........'

The hunters later discover three bull elephants, and how these are felled is awesome:

'Osman dared not approach closer whilst he was mounted. He slipped from the saddle and girded up the hem of his jibba with the blue sash, leaving his legs covered only with baggy breeches. He tightened the straps of his sandals, then drew his broadsword. Instinctively he tried the edge and sucked the drop of blood that welled from the ball of his thumb.........The bull seemed as majestic as a three-decked man-o'-war. It seemed impossible that such a mighty beast could fall to the puny blade. Osman stepped lithely and lightly with the grace of a dancer, carrying the sword in his right hand. However, he had bound the first hand's breadth of the blade above the cruciform crosspiece of the hilt with a strip of skin from the ear of a freshly killed elephant: now that this had dried and cured it formed a double grip for his left hand..........Osman changed his grip, two-handed now for the fatal stroke, and moved down the bull's flank close enough to touch him with the point of the sword.........His aggagiers watched him with awe and admiration. A lesser warrior would have chosen to hamstring his quarry, approaching the unsuspecting beast from behind and, with swift double strokes, severing the main tendons and arteries in the back of the legs above the huge, splayed feet. That injury would allow the hunter to escape, but cripple and anchor the bull until the severed arteries had drained the life from him, a slow death that might take up to an hour. However, to attempt the head-on approach as the emir was doing, increased the danger a hundredfold. Osman was now well within the arc of the trunk, which was capable of delivering a blow that would shatter every bone in his body. The huge ears picked up the smallest sound, even a carefully controlled breath, and at such close quarters the rheumy little eyes could detect the slightest movement..............The dangling trunk was also shielded by the thick yellow tusks. Osman had to entice the bull into extending it towards him. Any untoward movement, any incongruous sound would trigger a devastating response. He would be clubbed down by a blow from the trunk, or trampled under the pads of those great feet, or transfixed by an ivory tusk, then knelt upon and ground to bloody paste under the bulging bone of the bull's forehead.........Osman twisted the blade gently between his fists and, with the polished metal, picked up one of the stray sunbeams that pierced the canopy above his head. He played the reflected sunbeam onto the bull's gently flapping ear, then directed it forward gradually until it shot a tiny diamond wedge of light into the bull's half-closed eye. The elephant opened his eye fully and it glittered as he sought out the source of this mild annoyance. He detected no movement other than the trembling spot of sunlight, and reached out his trunk towards it, not alarmed but mildly curious.........There was no need for Osman to adjust his double grip on the hilt. The blade described a glittering sweep in the air, fast as the stoop of the hunting peregrine. There was no bone in the trunk to turn the blow so the silver blade sliced cleanly through it and half dropped to the ground........The elephant reeled back from the shock and agony. Osman jumped back at the same instant and the bull spotted the movement and tried to lash out at it. But his trunk lay on the earth, and as the stump swung in an arc towards Osman, the blood hosed from the open arteries and sprayed in a crimson jet that soaked his jibba. Then the bull lifted the stump of his amputated trunk and trumpeted in mortal anguish, his blood spraying back over his head and into his eyes. He charged into the forest, shattering the trees and thornbushes that blocked his path. Startled from the brink of sleep by his trumpeting screams, the other bulls fled with him.............'

The story continues with the hunters riding down the other two bull elephants, and, leaping from their horses, despatching one by the same method of trunk amputation, and the second by the slower method of slashing with swords the arteries and tendons in the rear legs. By the time this last elephant is brought down, the two whose trunks had been slashed off had bled to death - the blood pumped out of the arteries in the trunk stump at a great rate as the distraught animals charged through the bush. Two of the hunters are killed in the process. I hope these brief extracts might whet your appetite to read the whole book. Its worth it for the whole story of the hunting of the bull elephants by sword alone. It's also the best fictionalised account I've read of the events in the Sudan in 1884/5 which culminated in the fall of Khartoum and the death of General Charlton Heston (oops! I mean General Charles Gordon, of course!)

Ciao,
GAC

[BluErf]

Brave and skilled as the hunters were, I can't help but feel sorry for the elephants. A magnificent beast, as they described, felled for the vainity of man, not for food or clothing...

[Rick]

Agreed Blu , honestly I was sickened at the thought of severing an Elephant's trunk .
Times were different then , but an Elephant's trunk is .... such a wonderful thing , a miracle of nature .

[Jim McDougall]

"Natures great masterpiece, an elephant...."
-John Donne, "Progress of the Soul" XXXIX

While this narrative is an outstanding view of the times in the Sudan in these fascinating times, and it is amazing to hear the terrific descriptions of the weapons and tribesmen engaged in high adventure, I echo the the feelings expressed by Blu and Rick. I have always very much loved animals, but never fully appreciated what can only be described as the 'humanity' of these magnificent beings until I read "Sacred Elephant" (Heathcote Williams, N.Y.1989).

Although very impressed by this outstanding presentation from George, I cannot help feeling very saddened by the reality so graphically visualized.
Perhaps there is a lot to be said for romanticism without extreme detail.

Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

Although Wilbur tends to exagerate most details I think he is not far from the truth on how elephants were hunted with kaskaras. Check this site that has come up before, near the end. http://www.worldwideschool.org/libra...nia/chap8.html

"The elephant-hunters, or aggageers, exhibited their swords, which differed in no respect from those usually worn; but they were bound with cord very closely from the guard for about nine inches along the blade, to enable them to be grasped by the right hand, while the hilt was held by the left; the weapon was thus converted into a two-handed sword. The scabbards were strengthened by an extra covering, formed of the skin of the elephant's ear.

In a long conversation with these men, I found a corroboration of all that I had previously heard of their exploits, and they described the various methods of killing the elephant with the sword. Those hunters who could not afford to purchase horses hunted on foot, in parties not exceeding two persons. Their method was to follow the tracks of an elephant, so as to arrive at their game between the hours of 10 A.M. and noon, at which time the animal is either asleep, or extremely listless, and easy to approach. Should they discover the animal asleep, one of the hunters would creep stealthily towards the head, and with one blow sever the trunk while stretched upon the ground; in which case the elephant would start upon his feet, while the hunters escaped in the confusion of the moment. The trunk severed would cause an haemorrhage sufficient to insure the death of the elephant within about an hour. On time other hand, should the animal be awake upon their arrival, it would be impossible to approach the trunk; in such a case, they would creep up from behind, and give a tremendous cut at the back sinew of the hind leg, about a foot above the heel. Such a blow would disable the elephant at once, and would render comparatively easy a second cut to the remaining leg; the arteries being divided, the animal would quickly bleed to death. These were the methods adopted by poor hunters, until, by the sale of ivory, they could purchase horses for the higher branch of the art. Provided with horses, the party of hunters should not exceed four. They start before daybreak, and ride slowly throughout the country in search of elephants, generally keeping along the course of a river until they come upon the tracks where a herd or a single elephant may have drunk during the night. When once upon the tracks, they follow fast towards the retreating game. The elephants may be twenty miles distant; but it matters little to the aggageers. At length they discover them, and the hunt begins. The first step is to single out the bull with the largest tusks; this is the commencement of the fight. After a short hunt, the elephant turns upon his pursuers, who scatter and fly from his headlong charge until he gives up the pursuit; he at length turns to bay when again pressed by the hunters. It is the duty of one man in particular to ride up close to the head of the elephant, and thus to absorb its attention upon himself. This insures a desperate charge. The greatest coolness and dexterity are then required by the hunter, who now, the HUNTED, must so adapt the speed of his horse to the pace of the elephant, that the enraged beast gains in the race until it almost reaches the tail of the horse. In this manner the race continues. In the meantime, two hunters gallop up behind the elephant, unseen by the animal, whose attention is completely directed to the horse almost within his grasp. With extreme agility, when close to the heels of the elephant, one of the hunters, while at full speed, springs to the ground with his drawn sword, as his companion seizes the bridle, and with one dexterous two-handed blow he severs the back sinew. He immediately jumps out of the way and remounts his horse; but if the blow is successful, the elephant becomes disabled by the first pressure of its foot upon the ground; the enormous weight of the animal dislocates the joint, and it is rendered helpless. The hunter who has hitherto led the elephant immediately turns, and riding to within a few feet of the trunk, he induces the animal to attempt another charge. This, clumsily made, affords an easy opportunity for the aggageers behind to slash the sinew of the remaining leg, and the immense brute is reduced to a standstill; it dies of loss of blood in a short time, THUS POSITIVELY KILLED BY ONE MAN WITH TWO STROKES OF THE SWORD!

This extraordinary hunting is attended with superlative danger, and the hunters frequently fall victims to their intrepidity. I felt inclined to take off my cap and make a low bow to the gallant and swarthy fellows who sat before me, when I knew the toughness of their hearts and the activity of their limbs. One of them was disabled for life by a cut from his own sword, that had severed the knee-cap and bitten deep into the joint, leaving a scar that appeared as though the leg had been nearly off; he had missed his blow at the elephant, owing to the high and tough dried grass that had partially stopped the sword, and in springing upon one side, to avoid the animal that had turned upon him, he fell over his own sharp blade, which cut through the bone, and he lay helpless; he was saved by one of his comrades, who immediately rushed in from behind, and with a desperate cut severed the back sinew of the elephant. As I listened to these fine fellows, who in a modest and unassuming manner recounted their adventures as matters of course, I felt exceedingly small. My whole life had been passed in wild sports from early manhood, and I had imagined that I understood as much as most people of this subject; but here were men who, without the aid of the best rifles and deadly projectiles, went straight at their game, and faced the lion in his den with shield and sabre. There is a freemasonry among hunters, and my heart was drawn towards these aggageers. We fraternised upon the spot, and I looked forward with intense pleasure to the day when we might become allies in action."

Although I am not a hunter, and in fact both my parents were veterinarians, I do find it interesting, the shock of most of the replies. There is a dead human on another thread and most of the comments are what the "gore" on his blade is, no shock. This isn't a chastisement but an interesting observation. I thought all aspects of these weapons should be freely discussed?

All the best.
Jeff

[George Armstrong Custer]

Like Jeff I find some of the responses to the usage of these kaskaras interesting. I'd point out firstly, though, that my intention when posting the extracts was certainly not to offend anyone's sensibilities.

It seems to me that an important part of the collecting and ownership of historic weapons ought to be an absolute awareness of the purpose for which they were first produced. It is, perhaps, easy to become so engrossed in the artistic, decorative and manufacturing processes surrounding these weapons, as well as their ethnic and cultural attributes, that one overlooks - or perhaps chooses not to dwell upon - the fact that they were made to be used. And in the vast majority of cases, that use was the killing of other human beings. In my humble opinion it is only by fully appreciating what these weapons were intended to be used for that one can fully understand the nuances of their technical design - that is, they each incorporate specific design features which were intended to enhance their ability to kill by various means. I would go further, and say that it is only by appreciating that these were state-of-the-art killing tools that one can begin to accord them the respect that is perhaps their due - anything else is to trivialise them as mere ornamental objects. By this process also, collectors can begin to understand the reverence with which so many societies imbued these weapons - the creators of these weapons, of course, understood better than anyone their deadly function as an arbiter between life and death, and as a consequence often saw in them an almost mystical quality. The detail of how the weapons in our collections inflicted death does not, of course, make pleasant reading. But I do believe that we lose some of our integrity as collectors and interpreters of the past if we 'conveniently' overlook these unpalatable details - the end purpose of a weapon should be aired and discussed as openly as the decoration applied to it.

As to the methodology of killing elephants with the kaskara, when I first read Smith's account I was myself taken aback at the shocking and mortal blow which was inflicted upon the most iconic part of an elephant's anatomy. As I said in my introduction to the piece, the modus operandi of these hunders was truly astonishing. But as I've tried to explain above, I do not believe that we, as collectors, should shrink from such graphic knowledge as to how the weapons in our collections were deployed by their original owners.

Bluerf condemns the slaughter of the elephants by these nomadic tribesmen as being merely for the 'vanity of man'. With the greatest of respect, I would beg to differ, and point out that the trade of ivory underpinned the fragile trading economies of these peoples. And there is also the fact that the hunders took on their prey on a one to one basis; they could - and many did - perish in the encounter rather than the elephant. In my personal view it is absolutely pointless to try to impose our 21st-century mores and ethics when trying to understand the way of life of past societies. To try to do so will inevitably distort and obscure a true understanding of their concept of honor and their understanding of the cycle of life and death.

Jeff's obsevation on the fact that human gore on a blade can be discussed with apparent equanimity, whilst the bloody slaughter of an elephant can raise declarations of abhorrence is indeed an interesting one, and no doubt a psychologist could give a better explanation of this than I. But it is a curious apparent paradox which I've noticed before. The most extreme example of this phenomenon was probably Hitler, who directed the extermination of millions of human beings without a qualm, and yet was a vegetarian who vocally condemned any cruelty to animals........

Finally, I'd be interested to hear comment on Smith's reiteration of the idea that the kaskara were decended from the swords of European knights in the Crusades. I know that the feature on the kaskara on this site supports the 'revisionist' view that there is little or no connection. But I always feel that so many hundreds of thousands of European warriors went to the Holy Land on Crusade, and so many of these Crusades ended in disaster for them, that there must have been a vast body of European weaponry left in the region. The arid atmosphere was, of course, conducive to their long term survival thereafter. I therefore tend to the idea that it is more likely than not that the form of the kaskaras owed something to the swords of the Crusaders - and also that it is likely to be more than a hoary Victorian myth that a few original European Crusading blades were being carried as cherished heirlooms into the colonial wars of the 19th-century, and used against the decendants of their original owners. Any thoughts on this?

Ciao,
GAC

[Naga Sasra]

Do we really find it necessary to go into these graphic sardistic details in this forum, would these stories not belong in a hunters forum of sorts, where they truly enjoy the story of the various methods of the killing they employ and enjoy.

It would seem to me that the majority of us in this forum have an interest and collect to enjoy the ART of the weapon, that being the design, and the artful workmanship exhibited in the final product weather it come from a primitive tribe or from the most sophisticated makers at the time.
Yes, of cause we all know that some of our art objects may have seen uses in the past that would include killing, but I do not believe that this fact is of any consideration in our collecting habits, and nor should it be a factor as far as I am concerned.

I too was appaled by the graphics of this post, and question the reasons for this exhibition of torture and cruelty in this forum.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

"Natures great masterpiece, an elephant...."
-John Donne, "Progress of the Soul" XXXIX

While this narrative is an outstanding view of the times in the Sudan in these fascinating times, and it is amazing to hear the terrific descriptions of the weapons and tribesmen engaged in high adventure, I echo the the feelings expressed by Blu and Rick. I have always very much loved animals, but never fully appreciated what can only be described as the 'humanity' of these magnificent beings until I read "Sacred Elephant" (Heathcote Williams, N.Y.1989).

Although very impressed by this outstanding presentation from George, I cannot help feeling very saddened by the reality so graphically visualized.
Perhaps there is a lot to be said for romanticism without extreme detail.

Jim

While I am not offended by the descriptive process of the story ; I would like to offer the reverse of the old saw .

" Sometimes a thousand words are worth a whole album full of mental pictures ."

Most of the antique weapons that I am custodian for have been raised in anger to kill or maim ; I appreciate that they were a part of the making of history and deadly works of art . Having said that I am very glad that I do not have to see any graphic mental images of them in use every time I handle one . The knowledge of their use is enough .

As for the photo of the dead Juramentado , we were trying to discern whether his blade had sustained any bullet wounds . The story and description of his deeds and the damage and pain he sustained until his death was not the issue .

I certainly did not intend to scold or censor ; I just expressed my gut reaction to the text presented .

[BluErf]

I merely stated my thoughts - "Poor elephants, how and for what have you died."

Ivory was and is a luxury item.

And if you would ask - do I own anything with ivory on it? I would say yes, in fact quite a few items. I know, I know, next thing people would say is that I'm hypocritical.

But hey, it was sad to read how the elephants were killed then.

[Bill]

maybe not so great for the elephant, but using a sword instead of a high power rifle seems to give the animal a bit more of a chance. for many of us, modern life has shielded us from the crueler realities that many people suffer on a daily basis. those that see so much suffering are immune to any suffering an animal. the swords we collect are ment to kill, often making someone suffer a great deal before thier life ends, & this still continues to happen every day

[tom hyle]

The methodology and courage described are nothing short of amazing. I am surprised by the reaction, not because of the sympathy for the elephants, which seems typical of this forum's members, but the lack of doubt; the story certainly seems believeable to me, but that's what I expected; someone to question its veracity. I did think someone might twinge at the mention of blood on the Moro warrior's sword; people on this forum occasionally do; that and worries about stirring up nationalism is why I left the smiley face off of "maybe he did get his slice on"......A thing about elephants is that they are one of the peoples beside whom humans lived from the beginning, and for a long time throughout their range; now they are almost gone, like many before them....I think some of us are getting lonely. Hard to say there are too many elephants; humans?......
I think the idea that kaskara and takouba descend from crusader swords is a collectors'/curators' tale that grows out of an ignorance of medieval Arab swords, which were also straight and double edged, the curved sword being relatively modern in its dominance in both Europe and the Middle-East, and seeming to come with Tartaric invaders (Turks, Magyars, etc.); the penetration in Europe seems to have started early, but persisted at a low level for a long time (and mixed with the native sax); in Arabia, I don't know.
The kaskara has a Turkish/Persian style guard. Many Sudanic/Sahel people consider themselves Arabs, and are descended from ancient Arab immigrants, though to N Americans they would appear to be "black Africans", while others are of the related (Afrasian) Berber people, or related to them. So, occam's razor and all that good stuff; not much reason to turn to Europe for an explanation, (though if anything, a certain "Western" union between African and Celtic culture in the pre-Christian days may make sense in some African design) when Arabia makes more sense; I don't even know of any concrete reason to assume the distribution of the form to have been southward, rather than Northward. Some forms are fairly simple and seemingly universal, and the cruciform sword or dagger is seen in probably most human cultures. On the other hand, as Europe entered the "modern" era, and everyewhere else came within the European sphere of (often first) trade, then domination, many obsolete European sword blades were reforged and melted down, but many others were exported to less industrial regions; such is the bladestock for many Indian firangi and kattars, for instance, and many kaskaras and takoubas do have European blades; some perhaps from such trade, and others made up through at least the late 19th (and one would imagine at least a bit later) in Europe specifically for export to Africa, in the shapes desireable there (as well as sabre blades of the style made for the European market, which the Africans dressed and modified in a number of ways).
It is my impression that this version of takouba and kaskara ancestry is now more accepted by the official experts, though I rarely pay them much mind, so don't know, and is no longer considered revision of more than a folktale.
In India there was once a sword (a big kattar) made for a king. Its name was "Tongue of Death" It was proved in the tale by killing an elephant with a single thrust into the brain. This is a famous story; I've seen kattars with such name written on them, after the nature of, I suppose, "Andrea ferria"..........

[nechesh]

Gee, Radu, while i would say that these links certainly could stir things up a bit, i can't see what they could possibly have to do with edged weapons or the subject at hand. Thanks for the wonderful imagery. I sure it will stick with me for a while. You might want to put a children's advisory warning on those.
As for the subject at hand, i can see a bit of both sides of the coin here. I abhor the hunting of these great beasts, especially since it's only purpose seems to be for the luxury trade of ivory and not to sustain the survival of these people ( the trophy hunts in Radu's links are even more abhorent). Still this is a part of the ethnographic history of the weapons in question and i don't see it's discussion as out of place on this forum. The weapons we collect were certainly made to kill (though some might argue in the case of the Javanese keris ) and i think it is important to have an understanding of that. Though i am basically a vegetarian (eggs and fish an exception) i appreciate those who hunt for their meat because they have a true understanding of what it is they are eating and the sacrifices involved, unlike those who buy their perpared little squares of protein wrapped in styrofoam and plastic at the corner supermarket. As collectors of these blades i think it important that we understand the bloody history of these weapons.
That being said, i don't think it is necessarily unfair to find the slaughter of the elephant to feed the ivory trade disgraceful in any age. Just this morning i heard a similar argument to GAC's in reference to a man who was defending his ancestor's ownership of slaves with the excuse that it was the time and everybody was doing it. But it was greed that drove the slave trade just as it does the ivory trade and mankind has been far enough advanced morally to understand the rights and wrongs of these issues for many centuries. It is all to easy to excuse a peoples actions by the times they lived in.
Ultimately, i think the vast majority of us collect these weapons based on their artistic integrity, and not on their ablity or history of taking lives. Unfortunately, much of the "art" seems to have disappeared in the making of weapons. I remember being at the Baltimore gun show years back and marvelling at finely crafted Turkish rifles with beautiful and complex inlays of mother-of-pearl and wonderfully engraved gun barrels and thinking that if only we made missles with this quality of craft no one would ever dare to launch them.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Maybe I was a little harsh however it was nothing but the reality of it, one must accept it or at least stay aware of consequences. We glorify weapons and romanticise and bravery in battle or hunting but on the other hand we cannot handle ... of course I understand the Forum is not the place for gory exhibitionism nor that I enjoy it ...
Just a reality check once in a while ...

[Spunjer]

on the same subject, here's another excerpt:

Kris and Crescent

Written by Peter G. Gowing

When reports of savage skirmishing between American soldiers and Filipino warriors drifted back to the United States intermittently during the 15 years prior to World War I, the American public would have been hard put to explain what the fighting was all about. All most people knew was that the United States had just acquired the islands from Spain, that a captain named Pershing was doing a fine job and that a hand gun called the Colt .45 had been developed to bring down certain fanatical warriors who were terrifying the troops with wild suicide charges. They also knew, vaguely, that the warriors were called "Moros."

Considering that those same Moros today constitute a body of Muslims more numerous than the populations of either Kuwait or Libya and that they occupy an area larger than Denmark, this vague memory scarcely did them justice. Yet there has always been something unforgettable about the fierce courage of the Moros. In frail praus they ranged over the southern seas in quest of plunder and wrote a savage page in history as pirates and raiders. Armed with little more than the kris—a long, serpentine dagger that is as much symbol as weapon—the Moros went out to win tribal honors by killing wild elephants.

has anyone heard of this???

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Just a reality check once in a while ...

I agree. You've got mail.

[Ian]

Spunjer:

To the best of my knowledge there have been no wild elephants in the Philippines in the last 400+ years of recorded European settlement in the country, and I don't know if there ever were any elephants in the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao.

Ian.

[Mark]

I have re-opened this thread not due to the criticisms that attended its closing, but to try and make the point by actions, as words seem to be missing the target.

It has been said many times that the thread was not closed because of the topic being discussed, nor the nature of the discussion. It was locked because the links to very graphic photos of mutilated elephants and to advertisements for big game hunting were posted, with the expressed purpose of "stirring things up," which it did, as can be seen by posts that remain here expressing pretty unanimously that the pictures were unecessary and added nothing to the discussion. Basically, the thread was rapidly moving (a) off-topic, and (b) towards a debate that was looking more emotional than reasoned, so it was frozen before things got ugly. In the words of Andrew:

The elephant thread went "wrong" when links to some photos were posted. Since the topic had the potential to overheat quickly, and since the posting of those links needed to be discussed by staff, I closed the thread.

As so many have pointed out, discussion of weapons cannot really take place in a vacuum. The use and effect of those weapons is certainly an appropriate subject of discussion. Provided such discussion is undertaken appropriately.

I'm not able to articulate it any better than that, I'm afraid. Gratuitious gore, incivility, trolling, and "stirring things up" will be handled as it comes.

Best,
Andrew

The links and associated post have already been removed; all the remaining posts remained even while the thread was locked (something that seems to have escaped those alleging censorship); the topic continued in a very productive and civilized manner in a later thread, which was never closed.

Now, so long as people do not take this action as an invitation to begin a new debate about forum posting policy, and keep any discussion here focused on the subject and not blatently offensive, we hopefully can leave this silly hoopla behind and continue learning and feeding our "jones" for swordes (and knives).

Now here is a dha. It has nothing to do with kaskaras or elephants, or censorship, but it is nice to look at.

[Spunjer]

Spunjer:

To the best of my knowledge there have been no wild elephants in the Philippines in the last 400+ years of recorded European settlement in the country, and I don't know if there ever were any elephants in the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao.

Ian.

ian,
i've pm you about maybe an expedition to the golden triangle area. upon further reading, i found out that wild elephants exist/existed in borneo, making it much more accessible to suluanons.

[zamboanga]

I know this was a sensitive thread a while back, but, this is just to answer the question on the use of elephants in Philippine soil

In one of the articles in the book "Mindanao: A Portrait" there was a passing mention of elephants being brought to Mindanao from Borneo(?) to destroy moro kutas. I think the article was written by Reuben Canoy. Those who have copies of the book can check this up.

[Spunjer]

must've been some serious undertaking shipping these beasts to sulu, then mindanao. thanks for the source, zamboanga...