Swiss Sabre

clockwork · 24th April 2015, 05:51 PM

Hi there everybody, I been gone awhile but just picked up a beautiful Swiss Sabre. I was told its made around 1700. I'm having issues with pic size and will post them as soon as I can. The Sabre is around 3 and half feet in length but will get you excact specs soon as I get back to the the states.

.

clockwork · 26th April 2015, 04:15 PM

Over all length is approx 3 feet 8 inches.

fernando · 27th April 2015, 12:50 PM

Wonderful piece, Tony.
Let's see what comments you will receive about it.

kronckew · 27th April 2015, 02:16 PM

beautiful sword. the swiss made, and still make some of the finest weapons.

reminds me of the old anecdote about the german kaiser watching a swiss Schützenfest with a swiss official, the kaiser made an offhand remark asking 'what would the swiss do with only a quarter million militia if i invaded switzerland with half a million of my best professional soldiers. the swiss official said 'shoot twice and go home.

cornelistromp · 27th April 2015, 08:25 PM

Nice sword !
about the authenticity, I will not say anything for the moment based on the posted photographs alone.

The sword can be authentic or not there are a lot of veracious "reproductions" made in the 19th and 20th centuries.
because the hilt has a thumb ring, the sword is made after 1577* probably at the end of the 16th century.

for other comparable examples, see for example Wallace A489 . a sword from 1530, and another later one auctioned at Thomas del mar???

best,
Jasper

* see drawing attached
Circle/School of Federico Zuccaro
1557-1609
A Swiss Halberdier, standing slightly to right, and a separate study of his left hand and of the halberdier
Red chalk, on two sheets conjoined.

this corresponds to the earliest known thumbring in Art.
the first illustration with this type of thumb ring known, published by A.V.B. Norman, is in the portrait of Melchior Hornlocher by Hans Bock I, dated 1577 (Basle oeffentliche Kunstsammlung, inv NR 80).

clockwork · 28th April 2015, 01:35 AM

I was told by the dealer it was from 1700 and that it came out of a private collection. From the research that I have done the blades did fall out of favor in the early 1700s but I cannot find pics of those models. The most common one I come across is the 1530 variant.

cornelistromp · 28th April 2015, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clockwork

I was told by the dealer it was from 1700 and that it came out of a private collection. From the research that I have done the blades did fall out of favor in the early 1700s but I cannot find pics of those models. The most common one I come across is the 1530 variant.

sorry to say but the dealer is mistaken, the type of your sword is of the last quarter of the 16th century.
you can't find any pictures, in art or museums giving you a date around 1700, because this type no longer existed in 1700!

there are 1 1/2 hand swiss sabers of another type to find in the 17th century, these are mainly the of lion head pommel type. see pictures, nr 315.
In the second half of the 17th century the swiss 1 1/2 hand saber disappears completely.

may not be applicable to your purchase but in general, especially with dealers, I would not settle for provenance "a private collection ", a noble family who wishes to remain secret e.g.
but would like to have the name of the collector.

if you have received the details you can verify e.g. provenance with him also.

best,

broadaxe · 29th April 2015, 10:23 PM

I agree with Jasper, this saber is totally out of context to the 18th c. and is much earlier. The distinctive pronged pommel and matching bars of the cross guard are good signs of the 16th c. however the presence of a well-developped thumb ring may date the hilt into the (early) 17th c.

CSinTX · 29th April 2015, 11:55 PM

In my somewhat uneducated opinion, the blade appears to be 19th century to me. I could be wrong though.

fernando · 30th April 2015, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dafunky1

In my somewhat uneducated opinion, the blade appears to be 19th century to me. I could be wrong though.

Not so difficult to follow your impression, when looking twice to it. I wonder why Jasper has not commented on that possibility.
Not that Tony would like the idea, though

AHorsa · 30th April 2015, 05:03 PM

What happened to the cross-guard on the 2nd picture of the 1st entry??

I agree with your doubts concerning the blade. As the riveting looks unopened and the condition is fitting to the rest of the sword, I think we should discuss the possibility that this is a piece from the Historism/19th century.

24th April 2015, 05:51 PM	#1
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Swiss Sabre Hi there everybody, I been gone awhile but just picked up a beautiful Swiss Sabre. I was told its made around 1700. I'm having issues with pic size and will post them as soon as I can. The Sabre is around 3 and half feet in length but will get you excact specs soon as I get back to the the states. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 26th April 2015 at 08:53 PM.

27th April 2015, 08:25 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Nice sword ! about the authenticity, I will not say anything for the moment based on the posted photographs alone. The sword can be authentic or not there are a lot of veracious "reproductions" made in the 19th and 20th centuries. because the hilt has a thumb ring, the sword is made after 1577* probably at the end of the 16th century. for other comparable examples, see for example Wallace A489 . a sword from 1530, and another later one auctioned at Thomas del mar??? best, Jasper * see drawing attached Circle/School of Federico Zuccaro 1557-1609 A Swiss Halberdier, standing slightly to right, and a separate study of his left hand and of the halberdier Red chalk, on two sheets conjoined. this corresponds to the earliest known thumbring in Art. the first illustration with this type of thumb ring known, published by A.V.B. Norman, is in the portrait of Melchior Hornlocher by Hans Bock I, dated 1577 (Basle oeffentliche Kunstsammlung, inv NR 80). Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 27th April 2015 at 08:39 PM.

26th April 2015, 04:15 PM	#2
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Over all length is approx 3 feet 8 inches.

27th April 2015, 12:50 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Wonderful piece, Tony. Let's see what comments you will receive about it.

27th April 2015, 02:16 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	beautiful sword. the swiss made, and still make some of the finest weapons. reminds me of the old anecdote about the german kaiser watching a swiss Schützenfest with a swiss official, the kaiser made an offhand remark asking 'what would the swiss do with only a quarter million militia if i invaded switzerland with half a million of my best professional soldiers. the swiss official said 'shoot twice and go home.

28th April 2015, 01:35 AM	#6
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	I was told by the dealer it was from 1700 and that it came out of a private collection. From the research that I have done the blades did fall out of favor in the early 1700s but I cannot find pics of those models. The most common one I come across is the 1530 variant.

29th April 2015, 10:23 PM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I agree with Jasper, this saber is totally out of context to the 18th c. and is much earlier. The distinctive pronged pommel and matching bars of the cross guard are good signs of the 16th c. however the presence of a well-developped thumb ring may date the hilt into the (early) 17th c.

29th April 2015, 11:55 PM	#9
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	In my somewhat uneducated opinion, the blade appears to be 19th century to me. I could be wrong though.

30th April 2015, 05:03 PM	#11
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	What happened to the cross-guard on the 2nd picture of the 1st entry?? I agree with your doubts concerning the blade. As the riveting looks unopened and the condition is fitting to the rest of the sword, I think we should discuss the possibility that this is a piece from the Historism/19th century.