Oceanic wooden spears for comment

colin henshaw · 3rd May 2009, 01:16 PM

Hi

I've had a group of these long wooden spears from Melanesia stored away for some time, and decided to get some out and take a few pictures. They are very long (8 to 10 feet) and incredibly finely detailed, probably made with stone tools.

The ones shown are from New Hebrides, Solomom Islands and New Guinea, I think.

Has anyone seen the 1960s documentary on the Dani of New Guinea "Dead Birds" ?

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2009, 04:27 PM

Lucky you. Green with envy.

fearn · 3rd May 2009, 04:36 PM

Lucky you, Colin. I'm envious.

Not sure how much this has to do with Dead Birds though. I haven't seen it, but I've read Under the Mountain Wall, which was written about the same expedition. The Dani used a different kind of spear, and these look like lowland/island spears.

F

colin henshaw · 5th May 2009, 05:37 PM

Many thanks Tim and fearn.

I saw some excerpts from "Dead Birds" on YouTube...fascinating to see such stone-age weapons in actual use by native warriors, virtually without influence from Western culture. It seems warfare in New Guinea at least, was about display, sport/recreation and male posturing and that the number of fatalities were slight. This would go some way to explain why weeks of work could be expended in making a weapon that could be broken or lost to the enemy in one throw. Although Highland New Guinea spears tended to be plainer than my examples.

However, it must be said that Fijian natives in the 19th century and before, who also had intricate wooden spears, would massacre (and eat) large numbers of the enemy, including non-combatants.

Here are images of grasswork detail on another Solomons Island (Santa Cruz ?) spear I have, for interest.

Regards

asomotif · 6th May 2009, 12:02 AM

Interesting spears.

Here some of mine that I believe to be from PNG / Asmat ?

archer · 6th May 2009, 07:01 PM

Since We have a group interested in New guinea I thought I'd pose the question. I was told it is called a medicine mans stick, it was in with a lot of bows from the highlands. About six feet sooty and a bit brittle. thanks, Steve

heavy spear it may be the tip is broken or blunted from impact.

archer · 6th May 2009, 07:04 PM

Since We have a group interested in New Guinea I thought I'd pose the question. I was told it is called a medicine mans stick, it was in with a lot of bows from the highlands. About six feet sooty and a bit brittle. thanks, Steve

Sorry Delete this one.

colin henshaw · 6th May 2009, 07:28 PM

Hi Steve

I think its the top part of a spear that has been cut down, this was often done for ease of transportation....

Looks like black palmwood ? which was used in New Guinea and the Solomons.

Regards, Colin

colin henshaw · 29th May 2009, 11:24 AM

Hi

For anyone who likes Oceanic wooden spears and clubs.... here are some extracts from the mid-19th century book "Fiji & the Fijians"

Regards

VANDOO · 31st May 2009, 06:52 PM

MOST OF THE DEATHS IN A BATTLE USING THESE SPEARS WERE FROM INFECTION OR POISON AT A LATER TIME. I HAVE READ ACCOUNTS IN SEVERAL BOOKS OF WARRIORS WITH 10 OR MORE SPEARS STICKING IN THEM BREAKING THEM OFF AND CONTINUING TO FIGHT. THERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF SPEARS IN ONE OF THE ABOVE POSTS THAT HAVE VERY PRETTY WOVEN FIBER DECORATIONS ON THEM. THE YELLOW IS FROM A ORCHID PLANT THE FIBERS ARE SOAKED IN A VERY NASTY SOLUTION AND THEN WOVEN ON TO THE SPEAR. SOME OF THE PLANT FIBERS USED HAVE A NATURAL POISON AND SOME ARE SOAKED IN POISON OR SOMETHING ROTTEN OR NASTY TO CAUSE INFECTIONS. WHEN THE SPEAR PENETRATES THE WARM BLOOD AND MOVEMENT SOFTEN AND UNWINDS THESE FIBERS AND THEY FRAGMENT IN THE WOUNDS THE INFECTIOUS AGENTS OR POISON ALSO GOES INTO THE SURROUNDING TISSUE OR INTO THE BLOOD.
THE ARTICLE IN THE OTHER POST MENTIONS A TYPE OF PALM WOOD USED FOR SPEAR TIPS THAT ALSO FRAGMENTS WHEN IN WARM BLOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE IT ALSO PREVENTS HEALING AND PROMOTES INFECTION IT MAY HAVE A NATURAL PLANT POISON.
NEW GUINEA AND FIJI AND MANY OTHER AREAS OF THE TROPICAL WORLD HAVE A VERY GOOD ENVIRONMENT FOR MANY TYPES OF INFECTIONS SO A WOUND THAT IS NOT CLEANED AND TREATED VERY WELL USUALLY RESULTED IN A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH. SO THERE IS LITTLE WONDER THAT A WARRIOR WHO WAS SPEARED WOULD FIGHT ON IF HE COULD BECAUSE HE WAS PROBABLY A WALKING DEAD MAN AND IT WOULD BE A FASTER MORE MERCIFUL DEATH IN BATTLE. HE COULD GAIN HONOR AND REVENGE AT THE SAME TIME WHILE AVOIDING A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH WITHOUT HONOR LATER. IT MIGHT BE HARD TO REALLY DETERMINE WHO WON A BATTLE EVEN IF ONE GROUP APPEARED TO WIN AND TOOK THE FIELD. IN THE END THE TRIBE WHO LOST THE MOST MEN WAS WEAKENED AND WERE THE REAL LOSERS REGARDLESS OF THE ONE BATTLES OUTCOME THAT DAY.
THESE FANCY POINTS ARE BEAUTIFUL TO LOOK AT FOR US BUT ARE MADE TO LOOK INTIMIDATING TO THEIR TARGETS AND DESIGNED TO BREAK OFF IN WOUNDS AND BE HARD TO REMOVE AND TO CAUSE DEATH NOT TO BE BEAUTIFUL.

fearn · 1st June 2009, 12:50 AM

Hi Vandoo,

Interesting idea. I think you may be right in some environments. However, in Under the Mountain Wall, which is set in highland west Papua, they report on several battles with wooden spears. Several people get impaled, and with fairly primitive treatment, they manage to survive. Note that the spears in these battles were not barbed, and also they were well up in the highlands, not on the coast.

There are also stories from the Mojave Indians in California of warriors fighting on when they looked like porcupines from the arrows sticking out of them. They used weak bows, and the arrows apparently didn't penetrate deeply. Some of those warriors survived their wounds.

Basically, I think we need to be careful about theorizing. There's evidence that people can (under some circumstances) survive getting impaled, and others in drier environments will fight with many points in them. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but it does mean we should be careful.

F

VANDOO · 1st June 2009, 02:43 AM

UNFORTUNATELY ALL MY EXAMPLES ARE MOUNTED ON A LARGE FULL WALL DISPLAY SO I CAN'T GET THEM OUT AND TAKE PICTURES OF THE ONES I WOULD LIKE. I TRYED TO SEE IF THE FLASH WOULD WORK WITH THEM IN PLACE BUT HAD NO LUCK.
IF YOU SEE A POINT DESIGNED FOR DEEP PENETRATION WITH VERY FEW BARBS AT THE POINT THAT HAS A PIECE OF THE YELLOW ORCHID FIBER WRAPED AROUND IT , IT IS ONLY FOR WAR AND IS INTENDED TO KILL. IT PENETRATES DEEP AND THE PIECE OF FIBER STAYS DEEP IN THE WOUND AND FESTERS. THERE ARE OTHER TYPES OF WAR POINTS THAT ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO KILL SOME MUCH MORE BARBED AND SPIKEY BUT WOULD SURE LAY YOU UP FOR QUITE A WHILE IF NO INFECTION WERE PRESENT. THERE ARE ALSO FISHING AND HUNTING ARROWS OF ALL SORTS. MANY HAVE CANE SHAFTS WITH WOOD POINTS THEY ARE MUCH EASIER TO MAKE THAN THE LONG HEAVY SOLID WOOD EXAMPLES SO PERHAPS THEY ARE USED IN A DIFFERENT MANNER AND AT LONGER RANGE.
IN NEW QUINEA IT WAS NOT TOO UNUSUAL FOR THE TRIBES FIGHTING TO BE RELATED OR HAVE TIES IN SOME WAY SO THE OBJECT WAS OFTEN TO SETTLE A DISPUTE NOT TO WIPE OUT THE OTHER TRIBE. IN SUCH CASES PERHAPS THEY USED SPEARS OR ARROWS THAT WERE DESIGNED MORE TO WOUND AND WEAKEN THAN TO KILL.

I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE FILM OF SOME FIGHTING BETWEEN TWO GROUPS IN NEW GUINEA AND THEY DID SHOW WARRIORS STILL FIGHTING WITH SPEARS STUCK IN THEM AND DID COMMENT ON IT BUT THE FILM WAS TAKEN AT A SAFE DISTANCE SO SPEAR TIPS COULD NOT BE SEEN. A TALLY OF THOSE KILLED OR THAT DIED LATER WAS NOT GIVEN. BUT THE TIMES WHEN I HAVE TRAVELED TO THESE PLACES INFECTIONS FROM SMALL CUTS, SCRAPES OR BUG BITES HAD TO BE CAREFULLY SEEN TO AS EVEN WITH MODERN MEDICINE THEY CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS. WHILE A MAN MAY SURVIVE EVEN WITH PRIMATIVE OR NO CARE I WOULD IMAGINE OUT OF 100 MEN THOSE WHO DID NOT WOULD BE IN THE MAJORITY. THE NUMBERS LOST TO INFECTION IN AMERICAS CIVIL WAR WILL PROBABLY BEAR THAT OUT EVEN THOUGH WE HAD SURGERY AND MEDICINES.
AS I CAN'T GIVE A REFRENCE SO YOU CAN SEE THE FILM I SAW AND CAN'T GIVE THE TITLES OR AUTHORS OF THE BOOKS OR ARTICLES I HAVE READ OVER THE YEARS. JUST TAKE THIS AS WILD SPECULATION AND GUESSES AND ALL FICTION UNTIL SOMEONE WITH THE CREDENTIALS AND REFRENCES COMES ALONG TO PROPERLY ESTABLISH IT AS ALL FACTUAL OR NOT.

colin henshaw · 1st June 2009, 11:39 AM

Hi Vandoo & Fearn

There is an interesting bit in the documentary film "Dead Birds" about the New Guinea Dani, on YouTube...a warrior is wounded by an arrow, the broken protruding end of which is then pulled out by another Dani warrior, using his teeth. The commentator makes the observation that the wound would have been much more dangerous if the arrow had been barbed.

The best reference on this subject I can think of, is the excellent publication by the Fiji Museum, author Fergus Clunie, "Fijian Weapons & Warfare".

Regards

3rd May 2009, 01:16 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Oceanic wooden spears for comment Hi I've had a group of these long wooden spears from Melanesia stored away for some time, and decided to get some out and take a few pictures. They are very long (8 to 10 feet) and incredibly finely detailed, probably made with stone tools. The ones shown are from New Hebrides, Solomom Islands and New Guinea, I think. Has anyone seen the 1960s documentary on the Dani of New Guinea "Dead Birds" ? Attached Images

5th May 2009, 05:37 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks Tim and fearn. I saw some excerpts from "Dead Birds" on YouTube...fascinating to see such stone-age weapons in actual use by native warriors, virtually without influence from Western culture. It seems warfare in New Guinea at least, was about display, sport/recreation and male posturing and that the number of fatalities were slight. This would go some way to explain why weeks of work could be expended in making a weapon that could be broken or lost to the enemy in one throw. Although Highland New Guinea spears tended to be plainer than my examples. However, it must be said that Fijian natives in the 19th century and before, who also had intricate wooden spears, would massacre (and eat) large numbers of the enemy, including non-combatants. Here are images of grasswork detail on another Solomons Island (Santa Cruz ?) spear I have, for interest. Regards Attached Images

6th May 2009, 12:02 AM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Interesting spears. Here some of mine that I believe to be from PNG / Asmat ? Attached Images

6th May 2009, 07:01 PM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	what is this? Since We have a group interested in New guinea I thought I'd pose the question. I was told it is called a medicine mans stick, it was in with a lot of bows from the highlands. About six feet sooty and a bit brittle. thanks, Steve heavy spear it may be the tip is broken or blunted from impact. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 7th May 2009 at 06:30 AM.

6th May 2009, 07:04 PM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	what is this? Since We have a group interested in New Guinea I thought I'd pose the question. I was told it is called a medicine mans stick, it was in with a lot of bows from the highlands. About six feet sooty and a bit brittle. thanks, Steve Sorry Delete this one. Attached Images

3rd May 2009, 04:27 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,750	Lucky you. Green with envy.

3rd May 2009, 04:36 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Lucky you, Colin. I'm envious. Not sure how much this has to do with Dead Birds though. I haven't seen it, but I've read Under the Mountain Wall, which was written about the same expedition. The Dani used a different kind of spear, and these look like lowland/island spears. F

6th May 2009, 07:28 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Steve I think its the top part of a spear that has been cut down, this was often done for ease of transportation.... Looks like black palmwood ? which was used in New Guinea and the Solomons. Regards, Colin

29th May 2009, 11:24 AM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi For anyone who likes Oceanic wooden spears and clubs.... here are some extracts from the mid-19th century book "Fiji & the Fijians" Regards Attached Images

31st May 2009, 06:52 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MOST OF THE DEATHS IN A BATTLE USING THESE SPEARS WERE FROM INFECTION OR POISON AT A LATER TIME. I HAVE READ ACCOUNTS IN SEVERAL BOOKS OF WARRIORS WITH 10 OR MORE SPEARS STICKING IN THEM BREAKING THEM OFF AND CONTINUING TO FIGHT. THERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF SPEARS IN ONE OF THE ABOVE POSTS THAT HAVE VERY PRETTY WOVEN FIBER DECORATIONS ON THEM. THE YELLOW IS FROM A ORCHID PLANT THE FIBERS ARE SOAKED IN A VERY NASTY SOLUTION AND THEN WOVEN ON TO THE SPEAR. SOME OF THE PLANT FIBERS USED HAVE A NATURAL POISON AND SOME ARE SOAKED IN POISON OR SOMETHING ROTTEN OR NASTY TO CAUSE INFECTIONS. WHEN THE SPEAR PENETRATES THE WARM BLOOD AND MOVEMENT SOFTEN AND UNWINDS THESE FIBERS AND THEY FRAGMENT IN THE WOUNDS THE INFECTIOUS AGENTS OR POISON ALSO GOES INTO THE SURROUNDING TISSUE OR INTO THE BLOOD. THE ARTICLE IN THE OTHER POST MENTIONS A TYPE OF PALM WOOD USED FOR SPEAR TIPS THAT ALSO FRAGMENTS WHEN IN WARM BLOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO REMOVE IT ALSO PREVENTS HEALING AND PROMOTES INFECTION IT MAY HAVE A NATURAL PLANT POISON. NEW GUINEA AND FIJI AND MANY OTHER AREAS OF THE TROPICAL WORLD HAVE A VERY GOOD ENVIRONMENT FOR MANY TYPES OF INFECTIONS SO A WOUND THAT IS NOT CLEANED AND TREATED VERY WELL USUALLY RESULTED IN A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH. SO THERE IS LITTLE WONDER THAT A WARRIOR WHO WAS SPEARED WOULD FIGHT ON IF HE COULD BECAUSE HE WAS PROBABLY A WALKING DEAD MAN AND IT WOULD BE A FASTER MORE MERCIFUL DEATH IN BATTLE. HE COULD GAIN HONOR AND REVENGE AT THE SAME TIME WHILE AVOIDING A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH WITHOUT HONOR LATER. IT MIGHT BE HARD TO REALLY DETERMINE WHO WON A BATTLE EVEN IF ONE GROUP APPEARED TO WIN AND TOOK THE FIELD. IN THE END THE TRIBE WHO LOST THE MOST MEN WAS WEAKENED AND WERE THE REAL LOSERS REGARDLESS OF THE ONE BATTLES OUTCOME THAT DAY. THESE FANCY POINTS ARE BEAUTIFUL TO LOOK AT FOR US BUT ARE MADE TO LOOK INTIMIDATING TO THEIR TARGETS AND DESIGNED TO BREAK OFF IN WOUNDS AND BE HARD TO REMOVE AND TO CAUSE DEATH NOT TO BE BEAUTIFUL. Last edited by VANDOO; 31st May 2009 at 07:03 PM.

1st June 2009, 12:50 AM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, Interesting idea. I think you may be right in some environments. However, in Under the Mountain Wall, which is set in highland west Papua, they report on several battles with wooden spears. Several people get impaled, and with fairly primitive treatment, they manage to survive. Note that the spears in these battles were not barbed, and also they were well up in the highlands, not on the coast. There are also stories from the Mojave Indians in California of warriors fighting on when they looked like porcupines from the arrows sticking out of them. They used weak bows, and the arrows apparently didn't penetrate deeply. Some of those warriors survived their wounds. Basically, I think we need to be careful about theorizing. There's evidence that people can (under some circumstances) survive getting impaled, and others in drier environments will fight with many points in them. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but it does mean we should be careful. F

1st June 2009, 02:43 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATELY ALL MY EXAMPLES ARE MOUNTED ON A LARGE FULL WALL DISPLAY SO I CAN'T GET THEM OUT AND TAKE PICTURES OF THE ONES I WOULD LIKE. I TRYED TO SEE IF THE FLASH WOULD WORK WITH THEM IN PLACE BUT HAD NO LUCK. IF YOU SEE A POINT DESIGNED FOR DEEP PENETRATION WITH VERY FEW BARBS AT THE POINT THAT HAS A PIECE OF THE YELLOW ORCHID FIBER WRAPED AROUND IT , IT IS ONLY FOR WAR AND IS INTENDED TO KILL. IT PENETRATES DEEP AND THE PIECE OF FIBER STAYS DEEP IN THE WOUND AND FESTERS. THERE ARE OTHER TYPES OF WAR POINTS THAT ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO KILL SOME MUCH MORE BARBED AND SPIKEY BUT WOULD SURE LAY YOU UP FOR QUITE A WHILE IF NO INFECTION WERE PRESENT. THERE ARE ALSO FISHING AND HUNTING ARROWS OF ALL SORTS. MANY HAVE CANE SHAFTS WITH WOOD POINTS THEY ARE MUCH EASIER TO MAKE THAN THE LONG HEAVY SOLID WOOD EXAMPLES SO PERHAPS THEY ARE USED IN A DIFFERENT MANNER AND AT LONGER RANGE. IN NEW QUINEA IT WAS NOT TOO UNUSUAL FOR THE TRIBES FIGHTING TO BE RELATED OR HAVE TIES IN SOME WAY SO THE OBJECT WAS OFTEN TO SETTLE A DISPUTE NOT TO WIPE OUT THE OTHER TRIBE. IN SUCH CASES PERHAPS THEY USED SPEARS OR ARROWS THAT WERE DESIGNED MORE TO WOUND AND WEAKEN THAN TO KILL. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE FILM OF SOME FIGHTING BETWEEN TWO GROUPS IN NEW GUINEA AND THEY DID SHOW WARRIORS STILL FIGHTING WITH SPEARS STUCK IN THEM AND DID COMMENT ON IT BUT THE FILM WAS TAKEN AT A SAFE DISTANCE SO SPEAR TIPS COULD NOT BE SEEN. A TALLY OF THOSE KILLED OR THAT DIED LATER WAS NOT GIVEN. BUT THE TIMES WHEN I HAVE TRAVELED TO THESE PLACES INFECTIONS FROM SMALL CUTS, SCRAPES OR BUG BITES HAD TO BE CAREFULLY SEEN TO AS EVEN WITH MODERN MEDICINE THEY CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS. WHILE A MAN MAY SURVIVE EVEN WITH PRIMATIVE OR NO CARE I WOULD IMAGINE OUT OF 100 MEN THOSE WHO DID NOT WOULD BE IN THE MAJORITY. THE NUMBERS LOST TO INFECTION IN AMERICAS CIVIL WAR WILL PROBABLY BEAR THAT OUT EVEN THOUGH WE HAD SURGERY AND MEDICINES. AS I CAN'T GIVE A REFRENCE SO YOU CAN SEE THE FILM I SAW AND CAN'T GIVE THE TITLES OR AUTHORS OF THE BOOKS OR ARTICLES I HAVE READ OVER THE YEARS. JUST TAKE THIS AS WILD SPECULATION AND GUESSES AND ALL FICTION UNTIL SOMEONE WITH THE CREDENTIALS AND REFRENCES COMES ALONG TO PROPERLY ESTABLISH IT AS ALL FACTUAL OR NOT.

1st June 2009, 11:39 AM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Vandoo & Fearn There is an interesting bit in the documentary film "Dead Birds" about the New Guinea Dani, on YouTube...a warrior is wounded by an arrow, the broken protruding end of which is then pulled out by another Dani warrior, using his teeth. The commentator makes the observation that the wound would have been much more dangerous if the arrow had been barbed. The best reference on this subject I can think of, is the excellent publication by the Fiji Museum, author Fergus Clunie, "Fijian Weapons & Warfare". Regards