Afghan tribal sabre. Tulwar or Shamshir?

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 03:02 PM

Not really my sort of thing, that's what happens when you drink beer while driving your PC.
I was seduced by the scabbard. The blade was quite rusty in small patches but you can see that the finish was at one time gleaming. It is not fancy steel but folded and well tempered steel with a typical soft light cavalry sabre tip. The whole thing has a tribal feel about it, the informal hilt decoration and especially the the untidy and after thought fullers, which spoil it a little for me. Making me feel almost unhappy about the purchase. However it feels very comfortable, light enough to wield for a prolonged period and fits my hand like a glove. We have seen the onion like design engraved emblem before? It is somewhere between a tulwar and a shamshir. The blade is 23mm wide not including the forte section. I think other members had a punt on it as well. I do not think it was a cheap buy

. Can anybody add more information?

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 03:33 PM

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 06:30 PM

This is an odd sword with quite a story to tell. All the pieces of the sword are old. The scabbard has been made to fit this blade or the blade has been made to fit the scabbard perhaps a bit of both. The hilt has been made larger by adding to steel rings formed by four half moon sections so to speak. All three parts have been together for a long time.These features make me think all the more that this is from a more remote tribal group of people where things like this are a luxury as well as a weapon. Goes with my Taimuri pray rug. I am rather dissapointed really but thats life.

spiral · 19th September 2007, 07:20 PM

mmmm I was watching that one when it was still cheap

the chape looked very Afghan border tribal to me.

Seen many similar on Khyber swords.

Is it missing rivit in handle? hard to tell in photo?

Spiral

rand · 19th September 2007, 07:56 PM

Hey Tim,

Very interesting Tulwar you have added to you collection of metal stories. Looking past the wear you see what was once a sumptuos sword. Its Indo-Muslim Panjabi-Rajput hilt (Rawson) overlaid with silver in a large floral design, its Indian shallow curved double edged tip (wootz?) watered blade in contrast to a well formed cartouche sparkling inlaid (?) with a high carot gold standing out against its silver clad hosting hilt.

For a description its a great example of wear via sharpening, its dramatic just how much this blade has been resharpened, also indicates possibly a solid wootz blade with no iron core. The floral decoration on the hilt a type of inlay where large lines are cut into the iron followed by silver hammered in in thick overlay with designs then chased into the silver (all worn off). In general the larger designs used to decorate the hilt indicate earlier work.

The cartouche looks familiar and will probably not be to hard to identify, maybe post a better photo of it. The fuller would have originally been well defined and symetrical, not the varied shape groove we see now caused by too little care taken while polishing or cleaning.

This sword has served its master for a long time......

rand

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 07:57 PM

Yes a rivet is missing the hole was blocked with dirt. It goes through the blade and the other side of the handle. Does not seem to have had any effect on the blade handle fit. I cannot hide my disappointment but it is a real weapon. Circumstance and opportunity may be the inspiration of this sword rather than expression which is more my thing but that does not lessen the fact that some brave sole took the British Indian army on with it. Respect.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 08:03 PM

Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 08:19 PM

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

spiral · 19th September 2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

Tim can you do close up of chape? as I recal it was typical Afghan tribal work, I didnt keep the link, I think you paid a fair price, {I was after a bargain.} In my limited expierience lots of Afghan weapons went through newer scabbards etc, whenever neccasary.

I know an impecibly provinanced private collection of Afghan pieces all pre. or at least 1920 in which I estimate at least 70% of them could easily have replaced handels or scabards. But the replacment are genuine ,ethnographic & from thier working history as tribal & Afghan army weapons. The fit & work & were used in situ. I own 3 of them myself.

Spiral

Ferguson · 19th September 2007, 10:32 PM

I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it.

Beer + Ebay =

Been there done that.

Steve

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 10:48 PM

This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east.

There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.
The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative.

Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

spiral · 19th September 2007, 10:50 PM

I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils.

Its all good history in my book.

Spiral

spiral · 20th September 2007, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.

Actualy I was thinking of the sales photos on ebay Jim that showed this chape as a typical mix of brass & copper work full of course floral motifs, fairly Identical to many older Khyber scabberd chapes Ive owned or seen.

Spiral

Montino Bourbon · 20th September 2007, 02:44 AM

I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like?

As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes...

"Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 04:45 AM

Hi Spiral,
I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that

This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!!

Nicely done Tim!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2007, 08:15 AM

Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile.

When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire

, behold!! DOUBT

I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall.
So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2007, 09:47 AM

See how similar the designs are to prayer rugs and other textiles, the other side of the chape being very similar to eye dazzle patterns on Kilim and rugs. The close up seen the other way is the spitting image of the aforementioned. I find this quite interesting.

spiral · 20th September 2007, 04:10 PM

Thanks Tim, I realy like that chape, Harder to find one more tribaly ethnographic & charachterfull I think.

The original rivet would have been steel, but if its not loose or going to war, perhaps it doesnt need a refurbishment?

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 04:29 PM

Hi Tim,
Thank you for letting us share this acquisition with you. It really is good to sort of 'ride along' as the item arrives and experience the thoughts and sensations of excitement/doubt etc. as you view the actual item. I think this gives readers who may be somewhat new to collecting excellent perspective on what to expect when acquiring weapons purchased without actually handling them in person.

Now that I see the repousse type decoration on the chape, these remind me more of Hyderabad work on some of the weapons such as the 'karabela' hilt shape saifs that are shown in Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (I do not recall the page but the swords have several hilt forms and typically have the same repousse on the silver hilt and scabbard throat/mounts en suite.

It is a very good call to note the decorative motif's similarity to that seen on textiles and rugs. Various resources dealing with material culture in particular regions and cultures, such as the rugs and textiles are excellent sources for clues on motif. Just as we have noted the importance often found in nusimatic material to help sometimes with markings on blades, there are also clues found in architectural material, such as is the case in hilt structure on many Indian weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

19th September 2007, 03:02 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Afghan tribal sabre. Tulwar or Shamshir? Not really my sort of thing, that's what happens when you drink beer while driving your PC. I was seduced by the scabbard. The blade was quite rusty in small patches but you can see that the finish was at one time gleaming. It is not fancy steel but folded and well tempered steel with a typical soft light cavalry sabre tip. The whole thing has a tribal feel about it, the informal hilt decoration and especially the the untidy and after thought fullers, which spoil it a little for me. Making me feel almost unhappy about the purchase. However it feels very comfortable, light enough to wield for a prolonged period and fits my hand like a glove. We have seen the onion like design engraved emblem before? It is somewhere between a tulwar and a shamshir. The blade is 23mm wide not including the forte section. I think other members had a punt on it as well. I do not think it was a cheap buy . Can anybody add more information? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th September 2007 at 03:31 PM.

19th September 2007, 03:33 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Blade

19th September 2007, 06:30 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is an odd sword with quite a story to tell. All the pieces of the sword are old. The scabbard has been made to fit this blade or the blade has been made to fit the scabbard perhaps a bit of both. The hilt has been made larger by adding to steel rings formed by four half moon sections so to speak. All three parts have been together for a long time.These features make me think all the more that this is from a more remote tribal group of people where things like this are a luxury as well as a weapon. Goes with my Taimuri pray rug. I am rather dissapointed really but thats life. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th September 2007 at 07:12 PM.

19th September 2007, 07:56 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tulwat with silver inlay Hey Tim, Very interesting Tulwar you have added to you collection of metal stories. Looking past the wear you see what was once a sumptuos sword. Its Indo-Muslim Panjabi-Rajput hilt (Rawson) overlaid with silver in a large floral design, its Indian shallow curved double edged tip (wootz?) watered blade in contrast to a well formed cartouche sparkling inlaid (?) with a high carot gold standing out against its silver clad hosting hilt. For a description its a great example of wear via sharpening, its dramatic just how much this blade has been resharpened, also indicates possibly a solid wootz blade with no iron core. The floral decoration on the hilt a type of inlay where large lines are cut into the iron followed by silver hammered in in thick overlay with designs then chased into the silver (all worn off). In general the larger designs used to decorate the hilt indicate earlier work. The cartouche looks familiar and will probably not be to hard to identify, maybe post a better photo of it. The fuller would have originally been well defined and symetrical, not the varied shape groove we see now caused by too little care taken while polishing or cleaning. This sword has served its master for a long time...... rand

20th September 2007, 02:44 AM	#14
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Don't be disappointed... I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like? As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes... "Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

19th September 2007, 07:20 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm I was watching that one when it was still cheap the chape looked very Afghan border tribal to me. Seen many similar on Khyber swords. Is it missing rivit in handle? hard to tell in photo? Spiral

19th September 2007, 07:57 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes a rivet is missing the hole was blocked with dirt. It goes through the blade and the other side of the handle. Does not seem to have had any effect on the blade handle fit. I cannot hide my disappointment but it is a real weapon. Circumstance and opportunity may be the inspiration of this sword rather than expression which is more my thing but that does not lessen the fact that some brave sole took the British Indian army on with it. Respect.

19th September 2007, 08:03 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

19th September 2007, 08:19 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

19th September 2007, 10:32 PM	#10
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it. Beer + Ebay = Been there done that. Steve

19th September 2007, 10:48 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east. There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape. The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative. Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

19th September 2007, 10:50 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils. Its all good history in my book. Spiral

20th September 2007, 04:45 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Spiral, I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!! Nicely done Tim! Best regards, Jim

20th September 2007, 08:15 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile. When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire , behold!! DOUBT I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall. So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?

20th September 2007, 09:47 AM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Chape close up See how similar the designs are to prayer rugs and other textiles, the other side of the chape being very similar to eye dazzle patterns on Kilim and rugs. The close up seen the other way is the spitting image of the aforementioned. I find this quite interesting.

20th September 2007, 04:10 PM	#18
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Tim, I realy like that chape, Harder to find one more tribaly ethnographic & charachterfull I think. The original rivet would have been steel, but if its not loose or going to war, perhaps it doesnt need a refurbishment? Spiral

20th September 2007, 04:29 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Tim, Thank you for letting us share this acquisition with you. It really is good to sort of 'ride along' as the item arrives and experience the thoughts and sensations of excitement/doubt etc. as you view the actual item. I think this gives readers who may be somewhat new to collecting excellent perspective on what to expect when acquiring weapons purchased without actually handling them in person. Now that I see the repousse type decoration on the chape, these remind me more of Hyderabad work on some of the weapons such as the 'karabela' hilt shape saifs that are shown in Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (I do not recall the page but the swords have several hilt forms and typically have the same repousse on the silver hilt and scabbard throat/mounts en suite. It is a very good call to note the decorative motif's similarity to that seen on textiles and rugs. Various resources dealing with material culture in particular regions and cultures, such as the rugs and textiles are excellent sources for clues on motif. Just as we have noted the importance often found in nusimatic material to help sometimes with markings on blades, there are also clues found in architectural material, such as is the case in hilt structure on many Indian weapons. Best regards, Jim