Jimpul ex.collection W.O. Oldman

Dajak · 18th March 2006, 03:42 PM

Is pictured in the catalogue of ethnographical specimes

VANDOO · 18th March 2006, 04:44 PM

A BEAUTIFUL JIMPUL

, DOES IT HAVE COWRY SHELLS IMBEDDED IN THE BEES WAX FERULE? THAT IS SOMETHING I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING BEFORE ON DAYAK ITEMS. IN A OLD POST I ASKED ABOUT A DAYAK SWORD I HAVE AND IT HAD A SHARP POINTED CURVED BLADE, WE CAME UP WITH THE NAME JIMPUL FOR IT. I HAD THOUGHT THE NAME REFERRED TO THE SHARP POINT BUT AS I NOW SEE MANY WITH THE MORE BLUNT TIP REFERED TO AS JIMPUL INSTEAD OF MANDAU I AM NOT SURE AS TO WHAT SETS THEM APART. IS IT THE CURVED BLADE FORM THAT MAKES IT A JIMPUL AND NOT A MANDAU AND IF THE BLADE IS SHARP POINTED BUT NOT CURVED IS IT A MANDAU AND NOT A JIMPUL?

Henk · 19th March 2006, 07:22 AM

Vandoo,

The curved blade is caracteristic for a jimpul, but the most important thing to recognize a jimpul is the protusion on the blade near the hilt. The curl on picture 4.

Dajak · 19th March 2006, 09:48 AM

Hi no this is wrong the 3 picture is important for if it is a Jimpul or not.

Albert Zonneveld made a big mistake putting a certan mandua between the jimpuls.

On the Old Iban mandau you can find cowry shells

I will post another one from the Coppens collection that have the same

Dajak · 19th March 2006, 09:58 AM

This is an headmans Jimpul

Alam Shah · 19th March 2006, 11:53 AM

Dajak,

Another unique and interesting exquisite piece. The inlays looks like it's made from a few different materials.

Flavio · 19th March 2006, 12:21 PM

Hello Dayak, what a beautiful toys you have!!!

I have a question: i see in the last times a lot of mandau swords on ebay, that at my profane eyes, seem all modern or tourist items, but every times at the end of the auctions the price are very high. So can you give me guys, some ideas of what is good and what is a very true fake

. Thank you

Henk · 19th March 2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi no this is wrong the 3 picture is important for if it is a Jimpul or not.

Albert Zonneveld made a big mistake putting a certan mandua between the jimpuls.

On the Old Iban mandau you can find cowry shells

I will post another one from the Coppens collection that have the same

I think I count in another way, Dajak. The protrusion of the second jimpul on the picture is important. It is a kind of guard before the sharp part of the blade begins.
Very nice examples, by the way.

Dajak · 19th March 2006, 04:37 PM

Hi Henk take my word I am just collecting these items only more than 30 years it is the way like I am telling.

The guard use is only by the parang Niabor and some old langai tingai.

Dajak · 19th March 2006, 05:12 PM

HI Flavio

Difficult to say just look at the quality of the blade scabbard handle

and don t forget that high quality mandau s can do these days more than 5 or 6000.00 euro's these pieces you see never on ebay

VVV · 19th March 2006, 05:17 PM

In a way you are both correct (according to Shelford's definition).
Dajak's comment on the Jimpul not ending in a point is found on all Jimpul.
And Henk's comment on the finger-guard protrusion is usually found on a Jimpul.
But it's not a "must be there" like Dajak's "non-point".

Michael

VVV · 19th March 2006, 05:36 PM

And here is another ex-Coppen's, the one on page 73 far right.

Michael

Dajak · 19th March 2006, 08:09 PM

Look at the finger guard how can this hold your finger .

by the way an exxelent Jimpul This one was in my friend Richards collection.

look at these pics none off them is a Jimpul so the crowit makes not that it is a jimpul.

The parang Ilang is pictured in the book Quer Durch Borneo 1894 page 150
but has a crowit to Henk schould this be a Jimpul.

The other one Is a langgai Tingai but according to Henk it is a Jimpul.

So this explains why I am saying the crowit makes it not a Jimpul.

And by the pics you can see I am right

A Jimpul has a crowit and the the strange end it needs both to be a jimpul .

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello Dayak, what a beautiful toys you have!!!

I have a question: i see in the last times a lot of mandau swords on ebay, that at my profane eyes, seem all modern or tourist items, but every times at the end of the auctions the price are very high. So can you give me guys, some ideas of what is good and what is a very true fake

. Thank you

I'm not sure exactly what obvious tourist pieces you have seen go for high prices on ebay. I have noticed a few lately that didn't seem to get any bids. But i wouldn't necessarily confuse modern with tourist. I have also noticed some of these newer mandaus. Keep in mind that certain tribes in the inland areas were still taking heads as later as the 1970s, so a relatively modern blade could still be considered authentic (not that it would have to have taken a head to be so

) . I would imagine that the quality level on authentic pieces would be the tell-tale. I recently posted a mandau that is probably pre-WWII, but no doubt solidly a 20thC piece. It doesn't have the nice age and patina of the pieces Dayak has posted, but it is none the less authentic.

Titus Pullo · 21st March 2006, 06:38 AM

that's a cool looking machete!

I might take it with me on the next head hunting experience though!

Dajak · 21st March 2006, 12:54 PM

Hi Nechesh there are mandau s that look like new because they only used at cerimonial purposes .

The most newly made mandau s missing mostly a lot like
carving handle and the forging off the blade is not always like the old style even scabbards are not the way they should be.

I know A grandson From an Dayakhead man who live s overhere that was invited to a special festival in Borneo where no white people or outsiders get close to .
He was seeing there fresh tattoo s on the hands off the Ibans.
This was in the 1980 s I see a lot off pics from him that take you back to the old time.

Or are gifts and never Used

See these pics are givin to our Queens

the one with the bone was giving in 1897 to Queen Emma from the Sultan of
Kutai

The other 2 a gift also from the sultan off Kutai in 1928

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 02:11 PM

Hi Dajak. Your explanation to Flavio's question is certainly just as valid. Since we don't know exactly what auctions he is referring to it's hard to tell. Thanks for sharing more good exaples. I think i may have caught the Dayak bug. Now that i have one mandau i find myself looking for more.

ronpakis · 21st March 2006, 07:32 PM

i would like to add to this wonderfull discussion with very nice pictures that lots of weaponry and statues etc were made for collectors in the 19th century and of course other times. of course this mostly cannot be proven because many collectors have no provenance added. It just says: collected in nias in 1910 by.... this say only were and in what year the piece has been collectedand by whom.
For example: items were made for the great exhibitions in the early 20th century in paris etc and afterwards they dissapeared in museum collections.
Also items that were perhaps 10 years old or less were taken to lets say dutch musea to put in the collection. But since it happenend in lets say 1860 we call it antique but you can have questions if it realy ever was used in the way it is intended.

greetings Ron.

Flavio · 21st March 2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Hi Dajak. Your explanation to Flavio's question is certainly just as valid. Since we don't know exactly what auctions he is referring to it's hard to tell. Thanks for sharing more good exaples. I think i may have caught the Dayak bug. Now that i have one mandau i find myself looking for more.

Sorry for my vagueness

, but for the moment i can't show you any examples. If i will find some others i will post them. Thank you for your answers.

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronpakis

Also items that were perhaps 10 years old or less were taken to lets say dutch musea to put in the collection. But since it happenend in lets say 1860 we call it antique but you can have questions if it realy ever was used in the way it is intended.

Hi Ron. Certainly an item that was collected in 1860 really is an antique now regardless of how old it was when it was collected. It's not just what we call it. If it's 146 yrs. old it's an antique, period. I also would not discount a dayak headsman sword as not being authentic just because it was collected before it had the opportunity to take any heads.

If it was made by the Dayak at the time with all the skills and qualities that go into a blade that saw some real use, but was collected or gifted before being used it's still the real thing in my book. Just a mite bit cleaner.

Dajak · 22nd March 2006, 09:23 AM

Hi nekesh the blade is used off this mandau no doubt about that .

mmontoro · 22nd March 2006, 12:55 PM

Dajak,

What is the significance of the fresh tattoos on the hands of the Iban at the festival?

Thanks,

Manny

Dajak · 22nd March 2006, 08:32 PM

Hi the fresh tattoo s on the hand means that there been taking heads otherwise not allowed to put the tattoo s on the hand.

Henk · 23rd March 2006, 09:11 PM

Dajak, you have a PM

Flavio · 28th March 2006, 10:31 PM

Hi to everybody. What do you think about this? Thank you

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Dajak · 29th March 2006, 04:31 AM

Hi Flavio pieces like these are mostly gifts in the older days
and I know the guy who selling it it.

I can only tell just look good in the books and in the museums and than compare.

Look at old dayak picture s where they carry mandau s.

Look at old collection s so it must be easy for you to find out what piece this is.

Flavio · 29th March 2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Flavio pieces like these are mostly gifts in the older days
and I know the guy who selling it it.

I can only tell just look good in the books and in the museums and than compare.

Look at old dayak picture s where they carry mandau s.

Look at old collection s so it must be easy for you to find out what piece this is.

Ok Dayak, i understand what you mean

I'm very sorry for the buyer. Thank you very much

Flavio · 29th March 2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Flavio pieces like these are mostly gifts in the older days
and I know the guy who selling it it.

I can only tell just look good in the books and in the museums and than compare.

Look at old dayak picture s where they carry mandau s.

Look at old collection s so it must be easy for you to find out what piece this is.

Ok Dayak, i understand what you mean

I'm very sorry for the buyer. Thank you very much

Dajak · 30th March 2006, 04:29 AM

I am not telling I am sorry for the buyer.

VANDOO · 30th March 2006, 05:28 PM

I AGREE WITH THE DISCRIPTION ON THE MANDAU IN THE ABOVE PICTURE BUT WOULD POINT OUT THAT IT IS OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY THAN MOST OF THE MANDAU YOU SEE FOR SALE ON EBAY THESE DAYS. MOST HAVE VERY THIN POORLY MADE BLADES LOW QUALITY CARVEING AND NO ATTACHED SHORT HAIR IN DIFFERENT COLOR PATTERNS ON THE SCABBARDS.
A EXAMPLE LIKE THE ONE PICTURED WHILE MADE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR PRESENTATION HAS A SERVICIBLE BLADE, GOOD CARVEING AND WORKMANSHIP THRU OUT. THEY WERE NOT MADE FOR HEADHUNTING AND DON'T USUALLY DATE TO THAT PERIOD SO WILL NOT APPEAL TO ONE WHO IS ONLY INTERESTED IN THAT PERIOD AND ASPECT BUT ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF DAYAK WORKMANSHIP AND ART. MOST OF THE SWORDS SEEN IN THE SHOPS IN KUCHING ARE OF MUCH POORER QUALITY AND ARE FAIRLY RECENT ( SAY WITHIN THE LAST 60 YEARS) BUT THERE ARE SOME STILL BEING MADE THAT HAVE SUPERB WORKMANSHIP AND DON'T LOOK TOURISTY OR NEW BUT THEY ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. A COLLECTOR MUST BE VERY KNOWLEGABLE, LUCKY AND HAVE VERY DEEP POCKETS TO COLLECT THE GOOD OLD DAYAK WEAPONS THESE DAYS. I DON'T QUALIFY IN ANY OF THE THREE CATAGORIES SO I MUST BE CONTENT TO LOOK AT THE PICTURES AND THE FEW EXAMPLES I GOT IN THE PAST AND LEARN WHAT I CAN ABOUT THEM.
I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INFORMATION ON WHAT TRIBE AND IN WHAT AREA THESE ARE MADE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY FOR SALE IN KUCHING SO SUSPECT IT MAY BE IN THE INDONESIAN PART OF BORNEO.
I WAS ALSO WONDERING WHAT THE PRICE WAS ON THE MANDAU, ARE THEY USING A COMMA WHERE THEY SHOULD USE A DECIMAL POINT 340.00? OR IS THE PRICE OVER 34 THOUSAND USD, IF SO I TOO FEEL VERY SORRY FOR THE BUYER

18th March 2006, 03:42 PM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Jimpul ex.collection W.O. Oldman Is pictured in the catalogue of ethnographical specimes Attached Images

19th March 2006, 09:58 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	This is an headmans Jimpul Attached Images

19th March 2006, 05:17 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	In a way you are both correct (according to Shelford's definition). Dajak's comment on the Jimpul not ending in a point is found on all Jimpul. And Henk's comment on the finger-guard protrusion is usually found on a Jimpul. But it's not a "must be there" like Dajak's "non-point". Michael Last edited by VVV; 19th March 2006 at 05:38 PM.

19th March 2006, 05:36 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	And here is another ex-Coppen's, the one on page 73 far right. Michael Attached Images

19th March 2006, 08:09 PM	#13
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Look at the finger guard how can this hold your finger . by the way an exxelent Jimpul This one was in my friend Richards collection. look at these pics none off them is a Jimpul so the crowit makes not that it is a jimpul. The parang Ilang is pictured in the book Quer Durch Borneo 1894 page 150 but has a crowit to Henk schould this be a Jimpul. The other one Is a langgai Tingai but according to Henk it is a Jimpul. So this explains why I am saying the crowit makes it not a Jimpul. And by the pics you can see I am right A Jimpul has a crowit and the the strange end it needs both to be a jimpul . Attached Images

18th March 2006, 04:44 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A BEAUTIFUL JIMPUL , DOES IT HAVE COWRY SHELLS IMBEDDED IN THE BEES WAX FERULE? THAT IS SOMETHING I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING BEFORE ON DAYAK ITEMS. IN A OLD POST I ASKED ABOUT A DAYAK SWORD I HAVE AND IT HAD A SHARP POINTED CURVED BLADE, WE CAME UP WITH THE NAME JIMPUL FOR IT. I HAD THOUGHT THE NAME REFERRED TO THE SHARP POINT BUT AS I NOW SEE MANY WITH THE MORE BLUNT TIP REFERED TO AS JIMPUL INSTEAD OF MANDAU I AM NOT SURE AS TO WHAT SETS THEM APART. IS IT THE CURVED BLADE FORM THAT MAKES IT A JIMPUL AND NOT A MANDAU AND IF THE BLADE IS SHARP POINTED BUT NOT CURVED IS IT A MANDAU AND NOT A JIMPUL?

19th March 2006, 07:22 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Vandoo, The curved blade is caracteristic for a jimpul, but the most important thing to recognize a jimpul is the protusion on the blade near the hilt. The curl on picture 4.

19th March 2006, 09:48 AM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi no this is wrong the 3 picture is important for if it is a Jimpul or not. Albert Zonneveld made a big mistake putting a certan mandua between the jimpuls. On the Old Iban mandau you can find cowry shells I will post another one from the Coppens collection that have the same

19th March 2006, 11:53 AM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Dajak, Another unique and interesting exquisite piece. The inlays looks like it's made from a few different materials.

19th March 2006, 12:21 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Dayak, what a beautiful toys you have!!! I have a question: i see in the last times a lot of mandau swords on ebay, that at my profane eyes, seem all modern or tourist items, but every times at the end of the auctions the price are very high. So can you give me guys, some ideas of what is good and what is a very true fake . Thank you

19th March 2006, 04:37 PM	#9
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Henk take my word I am just collecting these items only more than 30 years it is the way like I am telling. The guard use is only by the parang Niabor and some old langai tingai.

19th March 2006, 05:12 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	HI Flavio Difficult to say just look at the quality of the blade scabbard handle and don t forget that high quality mandau s can do these days more than 5 or 6000.00 euro's these pieces you see never on ebay

21st March 2006, 06:38 AM	#15
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	that's a cool looking machete! I might take it with me on the next head hunting experience though!

21st March 2006, 12:54 PM	#16
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Nechesh there are mandau s that look like new because they only used at cerimonial purposes . The most newly made mandau s missing mostly a lot like carving handle and the forging off the blade is not always like the old style even scabbards are not the way they should be. I know A grandson From an Dayakhead man who live s overhere that was invited to a special festival in Borneo where no white people or outsiders get close to . He was seeing there fresh tattoo s on the hands off the Ibans. This was in the 1980 s I see a lot off pics from him that take you back to the old time. Or are gifts and never Used See these pics are givin to our Queens the one with the bone was giving in 1897 to Queen Emma from the Sultan of Kutai The other 2 a gift also from the sultan off Kutai in 1928 Attached Images

21st March 2006, 02:11 PM	#17
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Dajak. Your explanation to Flavio's question is certainly just as valid. Since we don't know exactly what auctions he is referring to it's hard to tell. Thanks for sharing more good exaples. I think i may have caught the Dayak bug. Now that i have one mandau i find myself looking for more.

21st March 2006, 07:32 PM	#18
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	why items sometimes look new i would like to add to this wonderfull discussion with very nice pictures that lots of weaponry and statues etc were made for collectors in the 19th century and of course other times. of course this mostly cannot be proven because many collectors have no provenance added. It just says: collected in nias in 1910 by.... this say only were and in what year the piece has been collectedand by whom. For example: items were made for the great exhibitions in the early 20th century in paris etc and afterwards they dissapeared in museum collections. Also items that were perhaps 10 years old or less were taken to lets say dutch musea to put in the collection. But since it happenend in lets say 1860 we call it antique but you can have questions if it realy ever was used in the way it is intended. greetings Ron.

22nd March 2006, 09:23 AM	#21
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi nekesh the blade is used off this mandau no doubt about that .

22nd March 2006, 12:55 PM	#22
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	tattoos on the hands Dajak, What is the significance of the fresh tattoos on the hands of the Iban at the festival? Thanks, Manny

22nd March 2006, 08:32 PM	#23
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi the fresh tattoo s on the hand means that there been taking heads otherwise not allowed to put the tattoo s on the hand.

23rd March 2006, 09:11 PM	#24
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Dajak, you have a PM

28th March 2006, 10:31 PM	#25
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi to everybody. What do you think about this? Thank you http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

29th March 2006, 04:31 AM	#26
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Flavio pieces like these are mostly gifts in the older days and I know the guy who selling it it. I can only tell just look good in the books and in the museums and than compare. Look at old dayak picture s where they carry mandau s. Look at old collection s so it must be easy for you to find out what piece this is.

30th March 2006, 04:29 AM	#29
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I am not telling I am sorry for the buyer.

30th March 2006, 05:28 PM	#30
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH THE DISCRIPTION ON THE MANDAU IN THE ABOVE PICTURE BUT WOULD POINT OUT THAT IT IS OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY THAN MOST OF THE MANDAU YOU SEE FOR SALE ON EBAY THESE DAYS. MOST HAVE VERY THIN POORLY MADE BLADES LOW QUALITY CARVEING AND NO ATTACHED SHORT HAIR IN DIFFERENT COLOR PATTERNS ON THE SCABBARDS. A EXAMPLE LIKE THE ONE PICTURED WHILE MADE FOR CEREMONIAL USE OR PRESENTATION HAS A SERVICIBLE BLADE, GOOD CARVEING AND WORKMANSHIP THRU OUT. THEY WERE NOT MADE FOR HEADHUNTING AND DON'T USUALLY DATE TO THAT PERIOD SO WILL NOT APPEAL TO ONE WHO IS ONLY INTERESTED IN THAT PERIOD AND ASPECT BUT ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF DAYAK WORKMANSHIP AND ART. MOST OF THE SWORDS SEEN IN THE SHOPS IN KUCHING ARE OF MUCH POORER QUALITY AND ARE FAIRLY RECENT ( SAY WITHIN THE LAST 60 YEARS) BUT THERE ARE SOME STILL BEING MADE THAT HAVE SUPERB WORKMANSHIP AND DON'T LOOK TOURISTY OR NEW BUT THEY ARE FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN. A COLLECTOR MUST BE VERY KNOWLEGABLE, LUCKY AND HAVE VERY DEEP POCKETS TO COLLECT THE GOOD OLD DAYAK WEAPONS THESE DAYS. I DON'T QUALIFY IN ANY OF THE THREE CATAGORIES SO I MUST BE CONTENT TO LOOK AT THE PICTURES AND THE FEW EXAMPLES I GOT IN THE PAST AND LEARN WHAT I CAN ABOUT THEM. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INFORMATION ON WHAT TRIBE AND IN WHAT AREA THESE ARE MADE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY FOR SALE IN KUCHING SO SUSPECT IT MAY BE IN THE INDONESIAN PART OF BORNEO. I WAS ALSO WONDERING WHAT THE PRICE WAS ON THE MANDAU, ARE THEY USING A COMMA WHERE THEY SHOULD USE A DECIMAL POINT 340.00? OR IS THE PRICE OVER 34 THOUSAND USD, IF SO I TOO FEEL VERY SORRY FOR THE BUYER