Wheellock musket

[cylord21]

Hello everybody, my first post in this section and it has been some time since my last post on Ethnographic Weapons, but reading often.
I have come across this wheellock musket that i want to share and learn about it since i don't know much on the subject. Specs are as follow
German stock ? decorated with inlay and engraved bone, pronounced cheek piece and trigger guard shaped grip
Total lenght 88.5 cm
Octagonal barrel lenght 56 cm
Outside diameter of barrel (flat side) 3 cm
Bore diameter 1.5 cm
V-shaped cockspring and trigger mecanism inside lockplate
No marks anywhere
I hope for coments on date, period, area of provenance and any other info anyone can share to help identify or document this firearm.

[fernando]

Welcome to European Armoury forum, Cylord.
Impressive example.
Let's see what the experts tell us about it.
Un gran saludo
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Hi Cylord,

This is not a military musket but the remnants of a ca. 1760 East German or Polish wheel-lock short hunting rifle (German Stutzen); the horn inlay in the stock might be original, then it's Silesian. Most probably though it's a 19th century 'embellishing' work.

The lock is of the plainest and latest form, with some elements missing from the left inside - see screw holes! The trigger is a crude replacement. As it is a rifle, it must have had a set trigger which is also missing now. The fore end is broken off, and so is the ramrod finial.

I would not even touch it, to be honest, but then, my fellow forum members know that my standards are strict and uncompromising. This does not have to be true for everybody - to each his own!


Best,
Michael

[Fernando K]

Google translation ... and not only :

Hello everyone:

I live in Argentina, and i do not know english. I can only say that this is a child's rifle, for some important person, to be tought how to handle a firearm. The short barrel confirms this. There are a few specimens in some museums.

Affectionately. Fernando

Original Spanish:
Hola a todos:

Resido en Argentina, y no sé inglés. Solamente puedo decir que este es un rifle de niño, para algún personaje importante, para enseñar a manejar un arma de fuego. El corto cañón así lo certifica. Hay en los museos algunos ejemplares.

Afectuosamente. Fernando

[Fernando K]

Hola a todos:

Resido en Argentina, y perdonarán que no escribo en inglés.

Este no es un rifle corto de caza, sino un rifle para niño (boy`s rifle). El largo del cañón así lo certifica. Si hacemos una reproducción a escala, veremos que no es un rifle con un cañon corto, sino que todo está en proporciones, con una culata menor que lo común.

Como bien ha dicho Matchlock, le falta el cubrecazoleta (cover-pan), su leva y su resorte.

Afectuosamente

Fernando Keilty
Argentina

PD: Escribo este post por segunda vez. No sé que ha pasado, pero no se publicó.

[Matchlock]

Sorry, Fernando K,

This is by no means a rifle made for a child; if so it would not only have a short barrel but all other proportions, lock and stock, would be smaller as well. They, however, are of average adult size.

It is, as I said, a Stutzen for huntig in underwood, as they are still built today.

Best,
Michael

[cylord21]

Sorry for the late answer.
Un saludo Fernando thanks for the wellcome.

Michael, certainly it is a hunting rifle, i could figure it out for the animals engraved on the inlay. What i don't know is if the term musket is use only for military and rifle for hunting ?. . Is there something to look for or a way to know if inlay is original or later embellisment please let me know. As for the holes on the left side of the lock, one is for the screw to attach lock to stock, the other one i don't know what it stand for, but not for a transmission chain as this is not a self spanning wheellock. The trigger is not a trigger, it is a piece o small diameter rod flatten on one end and screw it through a hole to the inside of the stock. The broken fore end has been smooth out but up to a point as to not to interfere with inlay work (later embellisment work?). There are other broken parts like both ramrod holder, one is almost completely missing and the fore end one is only half (both were done using same material as inlay, bone), it has also some stock repairs. Can you tell what does the sliding piece of the stock and its compartement/hole is for. My compliments to your knowledge and following strict standards is the way to go, thanks.

Fernando K, michael is correct the rifle is short but heavy and the stock is too big for a boy's hand to properly reach and pull the trigger, saludos.

Vicente

[Matchlock]

Hi Vicente,


I do hope to be able and comprehensively reply to your demanding questions.

1. A musket is tradionally a heavy military (non-decorated) gun; the term seems to have arisen in the mid 16th century and probably goes back to the Spanish term mosquito for the stinging insect and soon became especially synonymous of the 'sting' of a hot lead ball.
So there generally are a few basic criteria for defining a true military musket:

- long and heavy (meaning ca. 156-170 cm and 7-10 kg from ca. 1560 to 1620, and ca. 140-150 cm and 4-5 kg from ca. 1625-1680); these data are valid for both matchlock and wheel-lock muskets

- usually without decoration, apart from a short time span between ca. 1590 and 1618 when some high quality Suhl and Swiss muskets were delivered with ornamentally carved stocks

- barrel never rifled!


2. The definition of whether any kind of restoration or embellishment has been carried out at some later than the working time requires close and intense studies which take decades - meaning that you either have to trust a serious expert or take some hazardous adventures. Sorry but it's just as easy as that.


3. The butt trap, the cover of which may be a later addition on 'your' rifle, originally was not a 'patch box' like on Kentucky rifles but usually contained either reserve lead balls (the rests of grayish color can often be seen) or accoutermens like a spanner or cleaning tools like a scourer and worm.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michl,

... pardon my curiousity

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... the term seems to have arisen in the mid 16th century and probably goes back to the Spanish term mosquito for the stinging insect and soon became especially synonymous for the 'sting' of a hot lead ball....

Can you locate the source of these asumptions?
I heard of a somehow distinct explanation for the term, apparently a solid one but ... we never know


'Nando

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Exactly: we never know.

That's why I embedded my argument in a careful phrase: it's the result of many years of reading and I believe remembering that the statemets are based on opinions by Arne Hoff and John F. Hayward.

Anyway, I'll try and look 'em up but would be equally thankful of any suggestion and criticism from your side.

I know a bit of those things but I am certainly not the pope of the subject. Any decisive uttering on that early and little documented topic is, in my opinion, quite brave.

My dear friend, please do assist my learning and I will be extremely grateful to you as well as to anybody else. Ain't this the most important reason of posting and discussing here anyhow: adding and learning from each other?

Please be patient on me, amigo. The range I've been trying to cover for more than three decades is difficult and consequently demanding enough. I guess I tried to state in one of my first posts after being invited to our forum that most parts of the field I've been trying to plow still are, and in all probability will, sorta 'virgin'.

I would, in each case, be happy to learn about the interpretation you got as a kind of neighboring native speaker!

Thanks a lot and best wishes,
Michl

[Fernando K]

Hello, Cylord

Pardon invoking the translator, but I can not write English.
Regarding what you say is a key (lock) automatic open wheel (self-spanning) from the pan (bread), it is. Missing-cup cover (cover-pan) ("but, What is covered?), The cam (lever) and spring (spring) that kept in open-closed position. The hole in the inside left of the key questions, IMHO, is the screw fixing the key to the box (stock) but you will find a threaded hole for a screw that holds the spring. Similarly, find a threaded hole for the screw of the cam, probably covered by the flange or bridge (bridle). Similarly, if you examine the tree, crank shaft or wheel (spindle), you'll notice is a part intended to push the lever, just beginning to turn the wheel.
Regarding what you say the trigger (trigger) this type of rifles were double trigger or trigger the hair "(hair trigger) with two triggers, one for mounting and one for disassembly, with an adjustment screw in the middle. In the box (stock), enconmtrarás certainly an area dug for the mechanism of double disparador.Respecto the classification of child gun, do not forget that the term "child" refers to a teenager.

Affectionately from Argentina
Fernando KeiltyHola, Cylord

Perdonarás que recurra al traductor, pero no sé escribir inglés.
Respecto a lo que dices que no es una llave (lock) de rueda de apertura automática (self-spanning) de la cazoleta (pan), sí lo es. Falta el cubre-cazoleta (cover-pan) (¿sino, con qué se cubría?), su leva (lever) y el resorte (spring) que la mantenía en pòsición de abierto-cerrado. El agujero de la izquierda del interior de la llave a que te refieres, es el del tornillo de la fijación de la llave a la caja (stock) pero encontrarás un agujero roscado para un tornillo que retiene al resorte. Del mismo modo, encontrarás un agujero roscado para el tornillo de la leva, seguramente cubierto por la brida o puente (bridle). Del mismo modo, si examinas el arbol, eje o cigueñal de la rueda (spindle), verás que tiene una parte destinada a empujar la leva, apenas la rueda comenzaba a girar.
Respecto a lo que dices del disparador (trigger) este tipo de rifles tenían doble disparador o "disparador al pelo" (hair trigger) con 2 disparadores, uno para montarlo y otro para desmontarlo, con un tornillo de regulación en el medio. En la caja (stock), enconmtrarás, seguramente, un espacio cavado para el mecanismo del doble disparador.Respecto a la clasificación de arma de niño, no nos olvidemos que la expresión "niño", se refiere a un adolescente.

Afectuosamente desde Argentina
Ferando Keilty

[fernando]

Hi Michl,

The interpretation i have read about the term is by no means based on an endured experience like yours, but it sounded to me like making some sense as, at least, its ethimology was consensual in the different languages.
Musket, Mosquete in both Castillian and Portuguese, derives from the Italian Moschetto, giving the French Mousquet.
The name originates from Mosca (fly), which initialy designated a type of Sparrow hawk (Sparviero), later attributed to the crossbow throwing bolt then, by 'transference' to firearms, to the proppeled projectile of a (shoulder) gun.
Therefore the idea of flight, as a metaphor of speed.

However i confess that i found another interpretation, which weakens the solidity of the first one, therefore bringing down my previous presumption to a humble status of uncertainty .

There is also an old French legend saying that he name derives from the little beard flock under the inferior lip, called mosca (mouche) typicaly used by the soldiers armed with such gun.

Eventually this beard detail is also called mosca in Portuguese.

So Michl, please consider my aproach on a digestive basis .

'Nando

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, 'Nando,

Actually I like your copmrehensive approach far better than my humble try. I just tried to gather it together from my memory. Yours sounds much more convincing.

Anyway, the first real muskets according to my definition seem to have come from Spain, their characteristic broad triangular butts soon becoming typical of the whole category, especially soon in the muskets of Hispano-Netherlandish type in the 1560's-80's made immortal by de Gheyn's engravings in 1608.

Best wishes,
Michl

[cylord21]

Michael, your answers are very comprehensively written and documented, a good help to my little knowledge on the subject. Concerning about the inlay been original, no adventure for me, might let you know in decades . The butt trap has no grayish color or stain of any kind, look clean with little use, maybe an indication of later addition.
Fernando and Michael, the mosquito - mosca as probably the musket's name precursor is most interesting, could never imagine it.
Fernando K, will have a look on your observations.

Many thanks
Vicente