A sword and a uniform

Michel · 8th August 2010, 05:27 PM

hello every one
I am coming from the Ethnographic side of the forum and do not know if my questions are answerable by your team of experts.
The attached gentleman is supposed to be the Gal Robert Stuart of Annat.
He served in India but retired in UK. For my uneducated eyes, the uniform and sword seem to be from around 1800 or a bit later.
Daguerreotype came in 1835 and photos around 1870.
Is it really possible to have a photo of a gentlemen born in 1744 ? Even if he looks quite old !
If it is not possible, than the general is not General Robert Stuart of Annat !
End of the story and he does not belong in our family album !
But who is he ? with some clue on the uniform and the sword, we may be able to make some progress.
Thanks for any information, regards
Michel

Dmitry · 8th August 2010, 05:38 PM

The sword appears to be in French fashion, namely the Model 1816. these swords were used by the French to the end of the 19th century, perhaps into the early 20th, not only by the French, but also by the military of several other countries, including not only European powers, but USA as well [but this is not an American uniform].

kronckew · 8th August 2010, 05:45 PM

Lt. General Stuart died in 1834. (Linky)

apparently he also died in 1820.(linky2)

not sure which to believe....

Michel · 8th August 2010, 06:34 PM

Thanks to both.
Kronckew , if Gal Stuart died in 1820 or 1834 this answers my question: the photo cannot be of the Gal. Stuart.
Who is the gentleman ?
Only the uniform and the sword can give a clue.

Dmitry, I personally doubt that the sword is really French fashion as I have absolutely no ancestor, even at soldier level, who served in the French armies. Could the Dutch of these years have French inspired swords ? After the Napoleonic wars this is not impossible. I have several Col and General serving the Dutch royalties.

Thanks a lot for giving these informations
Regards
Michel

fernando · 8th August 2010, 06:40 PM

Hi Michel,
Does it have to be a British General ?
I would also guess the sword looks like a French "epee officier"

Sorry ... crossing posts

fernando · 8th August 2010, 06:49 PM

Quite a task !
Those epaulettes and cocked hat were were used in many countries and for a considerable span of time ... entering the 20th century.
One detail to consider is that the jacket only has one row ob buttos; mostly they have two rows.

Norman McCormick · 8th August 2010, 06:56 PM

Hi,
Neither the uniform, the sword nor the medals look like anything I can recall
as being part of a British military ensemble. Continental Europe I suspect.
Regards,
Norman.

Michel · 8th August 2010, 09:33 PM

Thanks to every one,
I think we are progressing.
No it does not have to be a British officer: the identification was done by my mother who had a tendency to write what she believed to be correct rather than checking if it was possible.
We have also officers in the Dutch armies, including some Col and at least one General.
If Dmitry is correct, the gentlemen could be wearing a sword with a French look.

What about the uniform ?
Could it be Dutch ?
Regards
Michel

Norman McCormick · 8th August 2010, 11:42 PM

Hi Michel,
The first medal pinned on the chest, left to right, has a similarity to the French Legion of Honour, see photograph.
Regards,
Norman.

kronckew · 8th August 2010, 11:59 PM

i'd concentrate on the medals, the one around his neck looks distinctive, appears to be a five lobed maltese cross with a crown above it. the smaller breast maltese cross with a crown and ribbon has a distinctive ribbon bar at the top of it. it doesn't appear to have five lobes like the previous post suggests.

Norman McCormick · 9th August 2010, 12:53 PM

Hi,
I should have made it clearer, it was the suspension rather than the decoration itself that I was alluding to. That type of gathered ribbon suspension would suggest to me France, Belgium perhaps the Netherlands as well. It is in France particularly that I can recollect having seen that method of suspension but I could be mistaken, will not be the first time, and there may well be others.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. The uniform suggests to me mid 19thC, a search on the net of photographs
e.g. from the Crimean War may produce a clue.

fernando · 9th August 2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... e.g. from the Crimean War may produce a clue.

I had been there; couldn't find a similar uniform ... for myself

Besides, there might be differences between field (campaign) and ceremony outfits.

http://www.allworldwars.com/Crimean...enton-1855.html

.

Michel · 9th August 2010, 05:34 PM

Hi,
I followed Norman McCormick suggestion and went to the Crimean war Photos.
Not much success. In fact, I now think that Norman is correct: not a British uniform. But I found all sorts of uniform with one row of buttons as well as 2 rows. Now look at Lt.Gal. Sir George de Lacy Evans. (Crimean war) he certainly does not have the same suspension of decoration, but his decorations are similar (?) to those of my Officer !
I have made very little progress with the Dutch armies, as I have not found any dutch uniforms with photos.
Thanks to all, I made some progress !
Regards
Michel

Norman McCormick · 9th August 2010, 06:40 PM

Hi Michel,
Another possibility might be to search for images from the Franco-Prussian War and other 19thC conflicts involving continental European armies e.g. colonial wars.
My Regards,
Norman.

Dmitry · 9th August 2010, 07:06 PM

*

Ian Knight · 9th August 2010, 07:14 PM

Just to add my ideas to this discussion, I think the officer is indeed French or a Napoleonic 1st Empire ally of France and the medal on his chest together with the Legion of Honour is The Saint Helena medal, created in 1857 by Napoleon III,and awarded to the 405,000 soldiers still living in 1857, who had fought with Napoleon I during the 1792-1815 wars.
http://www.stehelene.org/php/accueil.php?page=1&lang=en

Ian

P.s. The ribbon on my Sainte Helena medal is a replacement.

8th August 2010, 05:27 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	A sword and a uniform hello every one I am coming from the Ethnographic side of the forum and do not know if my questions are answerable by your team of experts. The attached gentleman is supposed to be the Gal Robert Stuart of Annat. He served in India but retired in UK. For my uneducated eyes, the uniform and sword seem to be from around 1800 or a bit later. Daguerreotype came in 1835 and photos around 1870. Is it really possible to have a photo of a gentlemen born in 1744 ? Even if he looks quite old ! If it is not possible, than the general is not General Robert Stuart of Annat ! End of the story and he does not belong in our family album ! But who is he ? with some clue on the uniform and the sword, we may be able to make some progress. Thanks for any information, regards Michel Attached Images

8th August 2010, 11:42 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Michel, The first medal pinned on the chest, left to right, has a similarity to the French Legion of Honour, see photograph. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

9th August 2010, 05:34 PM	#13
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi, I followed Norman McCormick suggestion and went to the Crimean war Photos. Not much success. In fact, I now think that Norman is correct: not a British uniform. But I found all sorts of uniform with one row of buttons as well as 2 rows. Now look at Lt.Gal. Sir George de Lacy Evans. (Crimean war) he certainly does not have the same suspension of decoration, but his decorations are similar (?) to those of my Officer ! I have made very little progress with the Dutch armies, as I have not found any dutch uniforms with photos. Thanks to all, I made some progress ! Regards Michel Attached Images

9th August 2010, 07:06 PM	#15
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	* Attached Images

9th August 2010, 07:14 PM	#16
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Just to add my ideas to this discussion, I think the officer is indeed French or a Napoleonic 1st Empire ally of France and the medal on his chest together with the Legion of Honour is The Saint Helena medal, created in 1857 by Napoleon III,and awarded to the 405,000 soldiers still living in 1857, who had fought with Napoleon I during the 1792-1815 wars. http://www.stehelene.org/php/accueil.php?page=1&lang=en Ian P.s. The ribbon on my Sainte Helena medal is a replacement. Attached Images Last edited by Ian Knight; 10th August 2010 at 05:14 PM.

8th August 2010, 05:38 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The sword appears to be in French fashion, namely the Model 1816. these swords were used by the French to the end of the 19th century, perhaps into the early 20th, not only by the French, but also by the military of several other countries, including not only European powers, but USA as well [but this is not an American uniform].

8th August 2010, 05:45 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	Lt. General Stuart died in 1834. (Linky) apparently he also died in 1820.(linky2) not sure which to believe....

8th August 2010, 06:34 PM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thanks to both. Kronckew , if Gal Stuart died in 1820 or 1834 this answers my question: the photo cannot be of the Gal. Stuart. Who is the gentleman ? Only the uniform and the sword can give a clue. Dmitry, I personally doubt that the sword is really French fashion as I have absolutely no ancestor, even at soldier level, who served in the French armies. Could the Dutch of these years have French inspired swords ? After the Napoleonic wars this is not impossible. I have several Col and General serving the Dutch royalties. Thanks a lot for giving these informations Regards Michel

8th August 2010, 06:40 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Michel, Does it have to be a British General ? I would also guess the sword looks like a French "epee officier" Sorry ... crossing posts

8th August 2010, 06:49 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Quite a task ! Those epaulettes and cocked hat were were used in many countries and for a considerable span of time ... entering the 20th century. One detail to consider is that the jacket only has one row ob buttos; mostly they have two rows.

8th August 2010, 06:56 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, Neither the uniform, the sword nor the medals look like anything I can recall as being part of a British military ensemble. Continental Europe I suspect. Regards, Norman.

8th August 2010, 09:33 PM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thanks to every one, I think we are progressing. No it does not have to be a British officer: the identification was done by my mother who had a tendency to write what she believed to be correct rather than checking if it was possible. We have also officers in the Dutch armies, including some Col and at least one General. If Dmitry is correct, the gentlemen could be wearing a sword with a French look. What about the uniform ? Could it be Dutch ? Regards Michel

8th August 2010, 11:59 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	i'd concentrate on the medals, the one around his neck looks distinctive, appears to be a five lobed maltese cross with a crown above it. the smaller breast maltese cross with a crown and ribbon has a distinctive ribbon bar at the top of it. it doesn't appear to have five lobes like the previous post suggests.

9th August 2010, 12:53 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, I should have made it clearer, it was the suspension rather than the decoration itself that I was alluding to. That type of gathered ribbon suspension would suggest to me France, Belgium perhaps the Netherlands as well. It is in France particularly that I can recollect having seen that method of suspension but I could be mistaken, will not be the first time, and there may well be others. Regards, Norman. P.S. The uniform suggests to me mid 19thC, a search on the net of photographs e.g. from the Crimean War may produce a clue.

9th August 2010, 06:40 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Michel, Another possibility might be to search for images from the Franco-Prussian War and other 19thC conflicts involving continental European armies e.g. colonial wars. My Regards, Norman.