A Fine and Highy Unusual Portuguese Double Dog Wheellock Gun, ca. 1580

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 06:26 PM

Preserved at the arsenal of the Veste (fortress) Coburg, Northern Bavaria.

Please note the very rare feature of two dogs for the igniting pyrites being present, one of course serving as a reserve just in case that the pyrites in the other one breaks. It is also notable that the short upper arm of the outer mainspring for the wheel at the same time acts on the left dog!

The profusely figured and silver inlaid stock and the highly stylized lock parts both represent the taste of the Late Renaissance Mannerism, while the stock inlay in the Oriental taste indicates that this superb gun was probably made as a present for some Cingalese-Malayan ? potentate.

'Nando, c'mon and teach me more!

With my thanks to the unknown photographer who posted this on flickr.com.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 26th March 2011, 07:28 PM

Oh man, you leave me without words; no kidding, i am speechless

.
How do you find these things?
... And how do you expect me to teach you anything at all in this area? I could not even dissecate a single dog weellock

.
Now, it would be fantastic if you found out how to follow the track of this magnificent specimen, as i don't have any clue, nor have i ever seen this picture.
Bu the way ... why Portuguese? Is the photographer that says so?

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 08:22 PM

No 'Nando,

It's just Michael the matchlock (and wheelllock

) man, who dares say so by humble experience and a few books.

I'm attaching scans of a characteristic Portuguese wheellock illustrated in Arne Hoff, Feuerwaffen I, 1968, p. 95f. I don't think this standard reference work was tranlated into English ... Hoff thinks this one might have been copied in Italy, an opinion from which I differ. For comparison, attached please find a characteristic North Italian combined wheellock and snaplock mechanism of ca. 1580: the outer main spring is similar to the Portuguese locks but the shapes of the dog and shell like wheel ornamentation are clearly variant (also from Hoff's book).

Spanish and especially Portuguese wheellocks range among the greatest rarities.

Rainer's book is not helpful as it covers only matchlocks. I'm pretty sure though he has some Portuguese wheellocks as well.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh man, you leave me without words; no kidding, i am speechless

.
How do you find these things?

I employ google!

m

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh man, you leave me without words; no kidding, i am speechless

.
I could not even dissecate a single dog weellock

.

I have dismantled hundreds of wheellocks, including their mechanisms, down to the tiniest screw (and have luckily managed to put them back together correctly ...

)

m

fernando · 26th March 2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Rainer's book is not helpful as it covers only matchlocks. I'm pretty sure though he has some Portuguese wheellocks as well....

Yes, he has; Portuguese and not only. He has other publications where some of those can be seen.
He has also exhibited a few, the other day:

.

fernando · 26th March 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I have dismantled hundreds of wheellocks, including their mechanisms, down to the tiniest screw (and have luckily managed to put them back together correctly ...

)

m

Oh yea?
And what is that couple tiny parts i see over there on your floor ?

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh yea?
And what is that couple tiny parts i see over there on your floor ?

Ok, you caught me there, ya rascal! Sorry, forgot to shove them under the carpet.

Even the greatest pretender is not invulnerable to that certain one better and bigger law man.

Won't happen again after doin' my time ... (big grin).

Btw, how did ya manage to install those hidden secret wide range cameras in my flat?! Well, there ain't no need telling me. You just got to know myself, my flat and collection at least as well as you do - and you sure earned it, my brilliant congenial rascal friend!

Again: let's meet as soon as possible in my humble Zeughaus. Then two of us together could drive just another two hours to Northern Bavaria, kick that lousy friend of mine's ass together and save your fuse - now wouldn't that be just sorta like Don Quijote and Sancho Pansa fighting some stubborn North Bavarian wind mill?!

Best wishes go out to a warm and comfortable Portuguese night, and my dreams will be full of your overwhelmingly and charmingly softly purring cats!!!

Michl

Matchlock · 26th March 2011, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes, he has; Portuguese and not only. He has other publications where some of those can be seen.
He has also exhibited a few, the other day:

.

Fine then - see the same dogs, springs and shell shaped wheel guards as on the gun from Coburg? They're all Portuguese, my dear friend!!

Now ain't that great?

Best,
Michl

Anandalal N. · 27th March 2011, 10:20 AM

Hi Michael,

Interesting find as usual. Lovely firearm and workmanship. Unfortunately the view is clearly limited.

Try as I might I am unable to find any single element that would enable me to definitely agree with a Cingalese origin. Similarities are there of course but since the view is limited, it is difficult to come to a clear conclusion. On the other hand the winged humans, scales in hand and the type of lions on the under side of the stock ... do they suggest a non oriental origin particularly, European?

Interestingly, Arne Hoff in Dutch Firearms identifies a wheel-lock with a shell shaped design on the lock as a Dutch Firearm. See color plate II.

Regards.

P.S. Now you'd better make sure your flat is not bugged too.

Matchlock · 27th March 2011, 01:21 PM

Hi Anandalal,

Thank you so much for your input!

When surmising a Cingalese-Malayan stylistic influence I let myself inspire by Rainer Daehnhardt's book on the close connection between Portugal and those countries. As you know I know almost nothing about weapons from Sri Lanka or Malay.

On the other hand, I cannot find any Western European art style on that piece either. My first thought when looking at that winged figure of Justice on the buttstock was the Inca culture in Peru but that's impossible.

I attach two Cingalese guns scanned from Howard L. Blackmore: Guns and Rifles of the World, 1965. Don't the running scrolls on the lower buttstock look similar to those on the Coburg gun?

Maybe somebody else from the Ethnographic forum can help us?

Best,
Michael

Anandalal N. · 27th March 2011, 08:29 PM

Hi Michael,

I am not disputing you. The resemblance in the scroll work is certainly there. Also the fretted butt-stock also leans towards Cingalese. What I am saying is that there is no single element by which I can make a definite identification.

However, your other comment is even more interesting. To me at first glance the other face on the butt-stock suggested Inca but like you I too thought it impossible. But now that you too have thought so, maybe it is not so impossible after all. On the other hand that makes it a very interesting find??

Regards.

Matchlock · 27th March 2011, 11:20 PM

Exactly, Anandalal,

It's a notable find anyway!

The Inca culture died about 500 years ago, almost 100 years before that gun was manufactured. No trade relations between the Iberian Peninsula and the Southern American continent have ever come to my knowledge though. What's possible: that the stock ornamentation is 19th c. Historismus fantasy. I'm afraid though no final judgement is possible without close scientific inspection - and I am certainly not expert enough to do that.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 29th March 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...and my dreams will be full of your overwhelmingly and charmingly softly purring cats!!!
Michl

Cats? what cats ?

.

Matchlock · 29th March 2011, 07:44 PM

Exactly!

Thank you for posting this perfect idyll of your everyday bliss!

Fernando K · 29th March 2011, 11:33 PM

Hola a todos.

En cuanto a la llave doble, de chispa y de rueda, el General Gaibi, director del museo de Artillería de Turin, la clasifica como italiana, y arcaica. El especialista italiano Marco Morín, la califica como de la península ibérica, de la primera mitad del siglo XVII. La compara con una pistola que pertenció a Don Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza, muerto en 1580, y que tiene la fecha grabada, de la cual solo se pueden leer las tres primeras cifras: 157...... (ver artículo en Diana Armi, número 2 de 1976)

Fernando K

Hello everyone.

As for the double wheel flint lock, General Gaibi, director of the Artillery Museum in Turin, classifies it as Italian, and archaic. The Italian specialist Marco Morin, qualifies it as from the Iberian peninsula, from the first half of the 17th. century. He compares it with a pistol that belonged to Don Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza, died in 1580, which has the date engraved, being only possible to read the first three digits: 157 ...... (see article in Diana Armi, number 2 from 1976)

Fernando K

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 04:39 PM

Hi Fernando K,

Thank you so much for your input!

Even the opinions of great arrms historians seem to differ on that issue: Iberian peninsula or Italy?

Best,
Michael

26th March 2011, 06:26 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Fine and Highly Unusual Portuguese? Double Dog Wheellock Gun, ca. 1580 Preserved at the arsenal of the Veste (fortress) Coburg, Northern Bavaria. Please note the very rare feature of two dogs for the igniting pyrites being present, one of course serving as a reserve just in case that the pyrites in the other one breaks. It is also notable that the short upper arm of the outer mainspring for the wheel at the same time acts on the left dog! The profusely figured and silver inlaid stock and the highly stylized lock parts both represent the taste of the Late Renaissance Mannerism, while the stock inlay in the Oriental taste indicates that this superb gun was probably made as a present for some Cingalese-Malayan ? potentate. 'Nando, c'mon and teach me more! With my thanks to the unknown photographer who posted this on flickr.com. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th March 2011 at 04:00 PM.

26th March 2011, 08:22 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	No 'Nando, It's just Michael the matchlock (and wheelllock ) man, who dares say so by humble experience and a few books. I'm attaching scans of a characteristic Portuguese wheellock illustrated in Arne Hoff, Feuerwaffen I, 1968, p. 95f. I don't think this standard reference work was tranlated into English ... Hoff thinks this one might have been copied in Italy, an opinion from which I differ. For comparison, attached please find a characteristic North Italian combined wheellock and snaplock mechanism of ca. 1580: the outer main spring is similar to the Portuguese locks but the shapes of the dog and shell like wheel ornamentation are clearly variant (also from Hoff's book). Spanish and especially Portuguese wheellocks range among the greatest rarities. Rainer's book is not helpful as it covers only matchlocks. I'm pretty sure though he has some Portuguese wheellocks as well. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 26th March 2011 at 08:53 PM.

27th March 2011, 10:20 AM	#10
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Cingalese? Hi Michael, Interesting find as usual. Lovely firearm and workmanship. Unfortunately the view is clearly limited. Try as I might I am unable to find any single element that would enable me to definitely agree with a Cingalese origin. Similarities are there of course but since the view is limited, it is difficult to come to a clear conclusion. On the other hand the winged humans, scales in hand and the type of lions on the under side of the stock ... do they suggest a non oriental origin particularly, European? Interestingly, Arne Hoff in Dutch Firearms identifies a wheel-lock with a shell shaped design on the lock as a Dutch Firearm. See color plate II. Regards. P.S. Now you'd better make sure your flat is not bugged too.

27th March 2011, 01:21 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Anandalal, Thank you so much for your input! When surmising a Cingalese-Malayan stylistic influence I let myself inspire by Rainer Daehnhardt's book on the close connection between Portugal and those countries. As you know I know almost nothing about weapons from Sri Lanka or Malay. On the other hand, I cannot find any Western European art style on that piece either. My first thought when looking at that winged figure of Justice on the buttstock was the Inca culture in Peru but that's impossible. I attach two Cingalese guns scanned from Howard L. Blackmore: Guns and Rifles of the World, 1965. Don't the running scrolls on the lower buttstock look similar to those on the Coburg gun? Maybe somebody else from the Ethnographic forum can help us? Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th March 2011 at 11:21 PM.

27th March 2011, 08:29 PM	#12
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Michael, I am not disputing you. The resemblance in the scroll work is certainly there. Also the fretted butt-stock also leans towards Cingalese. What I am saying is that there is no single element by which I can make a definite identification. However, your other comment is even more interesting. To me at first glance the other face on the butt-stock suggested Inca but like you I too thought it impossible. But now that you too have thought so, maybe it is not so impossible after all. On the other hand that makes it a very interesting find?? Regards. Attached Images

26th March 2011, 07:28 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh man, you leave me without words; no kidding, i am speechless . How do you find these things? ... And how do you expect me to teach you anything at all in this area? I could not even dissecate a single dog weellock . Now, it would be fantastic if you found out how to follow the track of this magnificent specimen, as i don't have any clue, nor have i ever seen this picture. Bu the way ... why Portuguese? Is the photographer that says so?

27th March 2011, 11:20 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, Anandalal, It's a notable find anyway! The Inca culture died about 500 years ago, almost 100 years before that gun was manufactured. No trade relations between the Iberian Peninsula and the Southern American continent have ever come to my knowledge though. What's possible: that the stock ornamentation is 19th c. Historismus fantasy. I'm afraid though no final judgement is possible without close scientific inspection - and I am certainly not expert enough to do that. Best, Michael

29th March 2011, 07:44 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly! Thank you for posting this perfect idyll of your everyday bliss!

29th March 2011, 11:33 PM	#16
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola a todos. En cuanto a la llave doble, de chispa y de rueda, el General Gaibi, director del museo de Artillería de Turin, la clasifica como italiana, y arcaica. El especialista italiano Marco Morín, la califica como de la península ibérica, de la primera mitad del siglo XVII. La compara con una pistola que pertenció a Don Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza, muerto en 1580, y que tiene la fecha grabada, de la cual solo se pueden leer las tres primeras cifras: 157...... (ver artículo en Diana Armi, número 2 de 1976) Fernando K Hello everyone. As for the double wheel flint lock, General Gaibi, director of the Artillery Museum in Turin, classifies it as Italian, and archaic. The Italian specialist Marco Morin, qualifies it as from the Iberian peninsula, from the first half of the 17th. century. He compares it with a pistol that belonged to Don Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza, died in 1580, which has the date engraved, being only possible to read the first three digits: 157 ...... (see article in Diana Armi, number 2 from 1976) Fernando K Last edited by fernando; 30th March 2011 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Translation tuning

30th March 2011, 04:39 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando K, Thank you so much for your input! Even the opinions of great arrms historians seem to differ on that issue: Iberian peninsula or Italy? Best, Michael