Chinese saber guards - forged or cast?

KuKulzA28 · 23rd January 2015, 11:50 PM

A question occurred to me recently...

Were Chinese saber/dao guards forged or cast?
I know typically there were iron or brass, yes?
Disc-shaped, rectangular, dish, S-shaped quillons...
Did it vary based on material or guard shape?

David R · 23rd January 2015, 11:56 PM

Dao or Dadao? I have an old Dao and the disk guard is soldered up from sheet, I have just bought a Dadao (not arrived yet) and the guard looks to be cast from iron.

Timo Nieminen · 24th January 2015, 12:24 AM

Iron guards, whether disc/cup, S, knucklebow, or other, are typically forged. I haven't seen a cast antique iron guard. (Not surprising, since you don't want to cast it from cast iron (too brittle), and forging is easier/more economical unless you cast straight from your blast furnace (which gives you cast iron), in the traditional Chinese iron industry.) Some modern (e.g., c. 1900) cup guards look like they're cut from sheet steel, and just have the edge folded over (which you could call cold forging, but you might not want to call forging at all).

Brass guards are usually cast, possibly with some forging/grinding/filing.

I've seen a bronze guard that look forged.

Iron/steel=forged, brass=cast is usual for pre-modern swords. These days, we see modern sword fittings of iron/steel that are cast (and, sad to say, sometimes even cast from cast iron - I broke one of those into tiny pieces). Now we're starting to see them being 3D-printed.

KuKulzA28 · 27th January 2015, 12:40 AM

Great thanks for the replies. That's what I suspected.

Perhaps this is why most reproductions today, even good ones, mainly use brass fittings...

Timo Nieminen · 27th January 2015, 10:47 PM

Don't know about most repros. The cheap ones (and there are lots of those) often use zinc-aluminium alloy (even easier to cast - lower melting point, flows well). Possibly brass is still more common. For Medieval European repros, cast steel might be most common, and for Japanese repros, cast zinc-aluminium alloy is most common. European complex hilts are often fabricated from bar and/or sheet (or cast brass).

Whatever is used, there's a definite move away from forging compared to historical methods. It's a replacement of skill by technology.

Another reason to use brass: fancy Chinese fittings will often be carved. Brass, being softer, is easier to carve. Cheap fancy fittings can be cast and just cleaned up a little (or on cheap and nasty ones, not even cleaned up, just left with flash and all). Fancy zinc-aluminium can be too weak. Fancy is relatively easy with brass.

KuKulzA28 · 28th January 2015, 01:53 AM

I see I see... too bad there doesn't seem to be as much demand for plain iron disc guards on reproductions, would much rather have that (personally) than a fancy brass one - but I can appreciate the artistry, and I can see why people like them.

Typically Chinese dao had tangs running all the way through even through a hole in the pommel and then peened, right?
I remember taking apart a modern repro which had a nut screwed on to tighten the handle/tang relationship and then a pommel fitted and glued on. Pommel came off with heavy use.

Studying Chinese saberplay, I can see the usefulness in a strong disc guard, though techniques don't involve much emphasis on the bind or catching of weapons.

I must get myself a good antique dao to study one of these days.

Timo Nieminen · 28th January 2015, 02:35 AM

The most common are:

(a) Tang through grip and peened at end of pommel, often with a hole through grip or tang which might have a rivet/pin or tubular rivet through it (or just a lanyard, but note that a tubular rivet allows a lanyard), or

(b) A wider tang with two grip slabs rivetted to it. Often with ring pommel, but sometimes no pommel, or a butt plate (with a little projection at the end of the tang peened over it), or the end of the tang is flared and the very end flattened into a butt plate, or

(c) Sometimes, with a ring pommel or pommel rivetted to a flared end of the tang, there are no rivet holes where the grip would be. Probably just grip made to fit between guard and pommel, and then cord or cloth wrapped; the pommel will stop it from coming off. The tang can be narrower than the grip, in which case the grip encloses the tang (basically, the same as Medieval European grip construction, except for the absence of a leather grip covering), but I've see one where the tang looked to be the full width of the grip.

Some examples (see pics):

A: Tang has rivet holes. Tang is narrow and fairly square. Looks like the (two piece) grip would have enclosed the tang, and been wrapped with cord.

B: No rivet holes in tang. Two piece grip would enclose tang, wrapped.

C: Grip slabs rivetted to tang (this is the single-slab sword noted above, but it would look the same from this side with two slabs). Maybe this grip would be wrapped too, but it's optional.

D: No rivet holes for grip, tang is wide. Two grip slabs, wrapped?

Modern construction varies a lot. A common good modern construction is that the end of the tang is threaded, and a large nut and washer hold the grip on, and a small nut holds the pommel on, and a rivet/pin goes through the grip and tang. Steps towards worse quality include one nut only at end of pommel, one nut at end of grip and pommel glued on, no rivet/pin through tang, threaded rod welded onto end of tang instead of the end of the tang itself being threaded, tangs too thin and/or narrow, and single piece drilled grip instead of two-piece grip properly fitted to the tang. This last defect is very common (but can be fixed by suitable use of epoxy or epoxy putty (or by making a new grip)).

I have one old ring-pommel dao with only one grip slab, and it looks like it only ever had one. Must be 1/2 of a pair-in-one-scabbard.

Usually, it isn't too hard to replace a guard with a new one (a plain mild steel one, for example). It also isn't too hard to make a plain steel guard - hacksaw, drill, files, and some time and effort. A cup guard could be cold-forged, if the steel isn't too thick.

David R · 28th January 2015, 11:23 PM

It just occurred to me to mention, the Dadao I have coming, and in the pic. is a 1937 dated Chinese Army piece, which is why the guard is somewhat "Industrial" in form. I am hoping it is the real deal, so I shall see what it is like when it arrives. See photo below for type of Dadao.

Timo Nieminen · 29th January 2015, 12:53 AM

Yours looks like the usual ebay fakes. Compare the guard with the ones in the picture of the Chinese troops (or, http://mandarinmansion.com/republican-dadao ). I've seen these both in cast brass and forged iron. While these "curled tip" guards aren't the only ones used (plenty of disc guards, some S-guards, some other guards), I've never seen one like the one on your incoming dadao on a known-to-be-genuine old dadao, but have seen plenty on known fakes.

(When you get it, can you post (or PM to me) some details of the blade thickness and cross-section. Basically, how much does the blade taper in thickness, and how close to a triangular wedge is the cross-section.)

David R · 29th January 2015, 02:18 PM

I have my reservations as well, but at a price of a quarter that asked for a repro. I thought it worth a punt. I will post pics and details when I get it. More pics from the seller.

23rd January 2015, 11:50 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Chinese saber guards - forged or cast? A question occurred to me recently... Were Chinese saber/dao guards forged or cast? I know typically there were iron or brass, yes? Disc-shaped, rectangular, dish, S-shaped quillons... Did it vary based on material or guard shape?

23rd January 2015, 11:56 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Dao or Dadao? I have an old Dao and the disk guard is soldered up from sheet, I have just bought a Dadao (not arrived yet) and the guard looks to be cast from iron. Attached Images

28th January 2015, 02:35 AM	#7
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	The most common are: (a) Tang through grip and peened at end of pommel, often with a hole through grip or tang which might have a rivet/pin or tubular rivet through it (or just a lanyard, but note that a tubular rivet allows a lanyard), or (b) A wider tang with two grip slabs rivetted to it. Often with ring pommel, but sometimes no pommel, or a butt plate (with a little projection at the end of the tang peened over it), or the end of the tang is flared and the very end flattened into a butt plate, or (c) Sometimes, with a ring pommel or pommel rivetted to a flared end of the tang, there are no rivet holes where the grip would be. Probably just grip made to fit between guard and pommel, and then cord or cloth wrapped; the pommel will stop it from coming off. The tang can be narrower than the grip, in which case the grip encloses the tang (basically, the same as Medieval European grip construction, except for the absence of a leather grip covering), but I've see one where the tang looked to be the full width of the grip. Some examples (see pics): A: Tang has rivet holes. Tang is narrow and fairly square. Looks like the (two piece) grip would have enclosed the tang, and been wrapped with cord. B: No rivet holes in tang. Two piece grip would enclose tang, wrapped. C: Grip slabs rivetted to tang (this is the single-slab sword noted above, but it would look the same from this side with two slabs). Maybe this grip would be wrapped too, but it's optional. D: No rivet holes for grip, tang is wide. Two grip slabs, wrapped? Modern construction varies a lot. A common good modern construction is that the end of the tang is threaded, and a large nut and washer hold the grip on, and a small nut holds the pommel on, and a rivet/pin goes through the grip and tang. Steps towards worse quality include one nut only at end of pommel, one nut at end of grip and pommel glued on, no rivet/pin through tang, threaded rod welded onto end of tang instead of the end of the tang itself being threaded, tangs too thin and/or narrow, and single piece drilled grip instead of two-piece grip properly fitted to the tang. This last defect is very common (but can be fixed by suitable use of epoxy or epoxy putty (or by making a new grip)). I have one old ring-pommel dao with only one grip slab, and it looks like it only ever had one. Must be 1/2 of a pair-in-one-scabbard. Usually, it isn't too hard to replace a guard with a new one (a plain mild steel one, for example). It also isn't too hard to make a plain steel guard - hacksaw, drill, files, and some time and effort. A cup guard could be cold-forged, if the steel isn't too thick. Attached Images Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 28th January 2015 at 10:07 AM.

28th January 2015, 11:23 PM	#8
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It just occurred to me to mention, the Dadao I have coming, and in the pic. is a 1937 dated Chinese Army piece, which is why the guard is somewhat "Industrial" in form. I am hoping it is the real deal, so I shall see what it is like when it arrives. See photo below for type of Dadao. Attached Images

29th January 2015, 02:18 PM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I have my reservations as well, but at a price of a quarter that asked for a repro. I thought it worth a punt. I will post pics and details when I get it. More pics from the seller. Attached Images

24th January 2015, 12:24 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Iron guards, whether disc/cup, S, knucklebow, or other, are typically forged. I haven't seen a cast antique iron guard. (Not surprising, since you don't want to cast it from cast iron (too brittle), and forging is easier/more economical unless you cast straight from your blast furnace (which gives you cast iron), in the traditional Chinese iron industry.) Some modern (e.g., c. 1900) cup guards look like they're cut from sheet steel, and just have the edge folded over (which you could call cold forging, but you might not want to call forging at all). Brass guards are usually cast, possibly with some forging/grinding/filing. I've seen a bronze guard that look forged. Iron/steel=forged, brass=cast is usual for pre-modern swords. These days, we see modern sword fittings of iron/steel that are cast (and, sad to say, sometimes even cast from cast iron - I broke one of those into tiny pieces). Now we're starting to see them being 3D-printed.

27th January 2015, 12:40 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Great thanks for the replies. That's what I suspected. Perhaps this is why most reproductions today, even good ones, mainly use brass fittings...

27th January 2015, 10:47 PM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Don't know about most repros. The cheap ones (and there are lots of those) often use zinc-aluminium alloy (even easier to cast - lower melting point, flows well). Possibly brass is still more common. For Medieval European repros, cast steel might be most common, and for Japanese repros, cast zinc-aluminium alloy is most common. European complex hilts are often fabricated from bar and/or sheet (or cast brass). Whatever is used, there's a definite move away from forging compared to historical methods. It's a replacement of skill by technology. Another reason to use brass: fancy Chinese fittings will often be carved. Brass, being softer, is easier to carve. Cheap fancy fittings can be cast and just cleaned up a little (or on cheap and nasty ones, not even cleaned up, just left with flash and all). Fancy zinc-aluminium can be too weak. Fancy is relatively easy with brass.

28th January 2015, 01:53 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I see I see... too bad there doesn't seem to be as much demand for plain iron disc guards on reproductions, would much rather have that (personally) than a fancy brass one - but I can appreciate the artistry, and I can see why people like them. Typically Chinese dao had tangs running all the way through even through a hole in the pommel and then peened, right? I remember taking apart a modern repro which had a nut screwed on to tighten the handle/tang relationship and then a pommel fitted and glued on. Pommel came off with heavy use. Studying Chinese saberplay, I can see the usefulness in a strong disc guard, though techniques don't involve much emphasis on the bind or catching of weapons. I must get myself a good antique dao to study one of these days.

29th January 2015, 12:53 AM	#9
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Yours looks like the usual ebay fakes. Compare the guard with the ones in the picture of the Chinese troops (or, http://mandarinmansion.com/republican-dadao ). I've seen these both in cast brass and forged iron. While these "curled tip" guards aren't the only ones used (plenty of disc guards, some S-guards, some other guards), I've never seen one like the one on your incoming dadao on a known-to-be-genuine old dadao, but have seen plenty on known fakes. (When you get it, can you post (or PM to me) some details of the blade thickness and cross-section. Basically, how much does the blade taper in thickness, and how close to a triangular wedge is the cross-section.)