![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 17
|
![]()
Hi Kerislovers,
I have found some interesting pages on Cambodian Krisses: http://www.fareastasianart.com/store...tasianart.html How our forumites think about ? empu kumis |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
|
![]()
That rust doesn't look like bronze to me.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 72
|
![]()
Does the blade really belong to that handle? Any information, where it was found? Seems to be very interesting, but for sure needs professional restoration.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Interesting. I don't see any provenance connected to this piece, such as where it was found or when. Does bronze rust? I remain skeptical. I would not be surprised if the keris form made it as far as Cambodia, but given the dating here they seem to imply this area may have been involved in the origin of keris. The price isn't too high for such a "rare" keris, but i'm not so sure i will rush out and add it to my collection.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,189
|
![]()
I'm glad you brought this topic up, Empu Kumis.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 17
|
![]()
There are two kerisses with rusty blades and bronze hilts. The hilts are not Javanese or Indonesian. The hilts might be the only difference and could help to find out the provenance. Maby some of our fellow forumites does know more on styles of Cambodia ? The blades reminds me on Javanese blades. Because of the lost ganja those people had no deep understanding of the keris. Bambang Harsrinuksmo in:
http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisologi.htm has mentioned Cambodia as one of the homelands of the keris and others too. This is the first time I have found pictures about Cambodian kerisses and therefore I like to share them. There is a story a Javanese princess has been married in the 14th Cent. ? to a king of Cambodia or a Cambodian princes to Java. Anyway I think Cambodia was for some time under Majapahit`s rule. This could be the reason wy the keris spread to Cambodia too. Probably there was not many in Cambodia and ther was no real keris culture. Maybe a curiosum ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
|
![]()
Does Bambang Harsrinuksmo's rule on the gonjo mean that all gonjo iras keris are not true keris? I have a rather nice old gonjo iras with a beautiful pamor adeg sapu that i would certainly argue is a real keris even though the gonjo is only delineated by an incised line.
I have heard of keris in Vietnam and i suppose back in the day the line between Vietnam and Cambodia didn't exist. Does anyone know what this kingdom was called back then? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 100
|
![]()
Gentlemen,
I'm assuming that the keris, if the Cambodian provenance is accurate, is from the Cham people. They live somewhere in the region between what is now modern Cambodia and Vietnam and according to a history lesson a Kelantanese friend gave long ago, were culturally related to the Malays of Pattani and the Malay Peninsula east coast states. They had a similar Hindu -Buddhist culture before the populace became Muslims. The language is related to Malay and other Austronesian tongues. However, the Champa kingdom was slowly swallowed by the Viets and what's left of the people today are usually identified as Cambodian Muslims. I'll try and see of I can dig up more on their keris culture. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
|
![]()
Hmmm... looks kinda funny. The handles looked like later additions. Anyway, the 2 kerises looked South Sumatran.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
|
![]()
A VERY INTERESTING KERIS BUT IT RAISES MORE QUESTIONS THAN IT ANSWERS. WERE THERE ANY BRONZE HANDLES ON KERIS IN MALAYSIA OR JAVA? WAS THERE A BRONZE AGE THERE AND WERE ALL BRONZE KERIS OR OTHER WEAPONS MADE THERE? IT WOULD BE GREAT TO GET SOME PROVENANCE ON THIS PIECE AND TO SEE IF IT IS ONE OF A KIND OR IF ONE OF MANY. IT APPEARS TO HAVE A FACE ON THE POMEL PERHAPS SOME INFORMATION COULD BE GAINED FROM THE FACE AND DESIGNS USED.
I PERSONALLY WOULD NEED A LOT OF PROOF TO CONVINCE ME OF ITS AUTHENTECITY AS THE CHINESE AND SOME OTHERS ARE MASTERS OF MAKEING SUCH THINGS ESPECIALLY BRONZE . BUT IT WOULD MAKE A GOOD STUDY TO FIND OUT ITS ORIGINS GENUINE OR FAKE EITHER WAY IT WOULD BE INTERESTING. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 17
|
![]()
Yes, it raises more questions but the thread is on the blackbord now and if somebody remember I think we all will be happy to hear answers and questions too. I`m myself has doubts on the authenthicety also. The fakers are everywere not only in China. So should have written more better:
Cambodian Kris ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
|
![]()
If there are indeed Cambodian kerises, I would imagine that they are more akin to the Pattani/Yala/Narathiwat/Kelantan style of kerises by logic of its relative proximity to these areas. However, the 2 examples we see are not anything like kerises from those areas, even without the benefit of seeing the ganja.
It is also true that identifying the origins of a keris depends a lot on the handle, but the sheath is even more important, IMHO. We don't have the sheath, unfortunately. Were the kerises trade blades brought into Cambodia or were they forged locally using local materials? If done locally, wouldn't they have a higher chance of being the pamorless type? The last thing I want to say is that the handles look awkward on the kerises, especially the curved ones. The lines 'just don't flow'. I think there's a very high chance that they are later additions. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
|
![]()
Raden Patah who founded the first Javanese Islamic court was a Majapahit prince from a Cambodian mother (Champa). Cambodian iron is also noted by Javanese Mpu as having specific spiritual qualities. I think that the keris might have reached Cambodia during the Majapahit reign. As the original hilt broke the Cambodian owner made a Cambodian hilt for it.
Salam Keris |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|