Identifying this sword ? (please take a look)

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 28th October 2006, 06:05 PM

Hello fellas

Well I have just aquired this sword from an antique dealer. Unfortunately he doesnt know anything about the date, but he says that it is an Afghan sword, and called it a "Khajar", "khazar" or something similar

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone here can help. If anything is not clear, please tell me

The sword:

1)

2)

3)

Thanks in advance.

katana · 28th October 2006, 06:28 PM

Almost certainly a 'Nimcha' ...possibly Moroccan ....looks like a good functional example.
I suggest you use the search this forum facillity (on the Ethnographic Weapons page with Nimcha ....
All the best...

Lew · 28th October 2006, 06:31 PM

A nimcha it is!

Lew

S.Al-Anizi · 28th October 2006, 08:43 PM

Hello Hurthuma, I had one of those recently! These seem to be newly made swords, coming out of yemen. I 'dissected' my piece and sacrificed it to learn more about it. Unfortunately, it wasnt well made. The tang, although peened, is very thin, a rat-tail type construction. The blade also seems to be very brittle, and chips easily.

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 28th October 2006, 09:07 PM

Ahh I have seen a nimcha, and well they look kind of the same, but not exactly the same. Interesting.. hmm..

S.Al-Anizi, you have the same type of sword?? from Yemen? interesting.. what can you say more my friend? p.s, I have seen your topic about the sword(yemeni?). It looks pretty similar

I appreciate your replies

S.Al-Anizi · 28th October 2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrthuma ibn Marwan

Ahh I have seen a nimcha, and well they look kind of the same, but not exactly the same. Interesting.. hmm..

S.Al-Anizi, you have the same type of sword?? from Yemen? interesting.. what can you say more my friend? p.s, I have seen your topic about the sword(yemeni?). It looks pretty similar

I appreciate your replies

All I could say that this style of sword apparently was common in southern arabia, on the western half. Most specialist say that these swords were made either in Yemen, or Zanzibar, or perhaps both places. Many sport european, particulary German blades. It is however nice to such a tradition still alive 'over there'.

Oriental-Arms · 28th October 2006, 10:24 PM

Unfortunately it is not a Nimcha, but only similar in the handle shape. This sword is coming from Yemen, one of the many types known as Saif and it is believed to be produced in the island of Zanzibar in the 19th C. The ring shape cross guard is typical to these swords produced in Zanzibar for the Arab market. Below is a similar exemplar:

and a close up on the handle with the ring shaped cross guard:

For a somewhat better specimen please see:Arab Saif Yemen / Zanzibar

ariel · 28th October 2006, 11:38 PM

Artzi is an E.F. Hutton of Oriental swords: when he talks, people listen

Here is my Zanzibar with a typical D-ring and silver-chased horn hilt. It is followed by a somewhat rarer South Arabia sword: also with Nimcha-type handle, clipped quillons and a typical 2-color scabbard. It is inlaid with low-grade silver chased panels and embellished with coins.
Artzi, what do you think?

Philip · 29th October 2006, 08:09 AM

Gentlemen
Great pictures of various specimens of Zanzibar sabers!

Some years ago, the noted London antiquarian Robert Hales collected these and we had a talk about them when I was in his shop one day. He believed that the lateral rings that form part of the guard (which differentiate this form of "sayf" from the more familiar Moroccan nimcha") are a common feature on many European sword hilts of the 15th cent., and were a design element probably picked up as a result of the incursions of the Portuguese in the region at end of the 1400s, and into the next century.

tom hyle · 30th October 2006, 05:21 PM

AFAIK the Moorocan swords are, like these S. Arabian/Swahili versions, natively known as saif/sayf. Certainly the relation between the two types is undeniably very close indeed, and there seems to be a certain amount of sharing with other Arabian sabres and those guardless Berbese ones that commonly have a hole thru the pommel.

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 30th October 2006, 08:16 PM

Thank you good fellows.
Very interesting to read what you have to say indeed. Alot is learned.

Thank you again

frequent · 31st October 2006, 07:36 AM

that sewing of leather on the scabbard in the first pictures looks nice is it common on weapons?

Philip · 31st October 2006, 07:59 AM

The leather covering and its stitching on this specimen looks new, based on its style and the rather smooth and clean condition of the surface. Antique scabbards from this part of the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula, and the Ottoman Empire) are typically covered with a type of leather with a granular, bumpy texture to it (the hide is usually from the donkey), the seam stitched with fine brass or silver wire in tight coils.

My experience with these Zanzibar sabers is that the seam is frequently glued. On the better examples, the leather is quite thin, and is carefully tooled to conform to delicate ribbing and other designs incised into the wooden scabbard body.

28th October 2006, 06:05 PM	#1
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	Identifying this sword ? (please take a look) Hello fellas Well I have just aquired this sword from an antique dealer. Unfortunately he doesnt know anything about the date, but he says that it is an Afghan sword, and called it a "Khajar", "khazar" or something similar Anyway, I was wondering if anyone here can help. If anything is not clear, please tell me The sword: 1) 2) 3) Thanks in advance.

28th October 2006, 09:07 PM	#5
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	Ahh I have seen a nimcha, and well they look kind of the same, but not exactly the same. Interesting.. hmm.. S.Al-Anizi, you have the same type of sword?? from Yemen? interesting.. what can you say more my friend? p.s, I have seen your topic about the sword(yemeni?). It looks pretty similar I appreciate your replies Last edited by Hrthuma ibn Marwan; 28th October 2006 at 09:34 PM.

28th October 2006, 10:24 PM	#7
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Yemeni / Zanzibar sword Unfortunately it is not a Nimcha, but only similar in the handle shape. This sword is coming from Yemen, one of the many types known as Saif and it is believed to be produced in the island of Zanzibar in the 19th C. The ring shape cross guard is typical to these swords produced in Zanzibar for the Arab market. Below is a similar exemplar: and a close up on the handle with the ring shaped cross guard: For a somewhat better specimen please see:Arab Saif Yemen / Zanzibar

28th October 2006, 11:38 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Artzi is an E.F. Hutton of Oriental swords: when he talks, people listen Here is my Zanzibar with a typical D-ring and silver-chased horn hilt. It is followed by a somewhat rarer South Arabia sword: also with Nimcha-type handle, clipped quillons and a typical 2-color scabbard. It is inlaid with low-grade silver chased panels and embellished with coins. Artzi, what do you think? Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 28th October 2006 at 11:49 PM.

29th October 2006, 08:09 AM	#9
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Portuguese influence Gentlemen Great pictures of various specimens of Zanzibar sabers! Some years ago, the noted London antiquarian Robert Hales collected these and we had a talk about them when I was in his shop one day. He believed that the lateral rings that form part of the guard (which differentiate this form of "sayf" from the more familiar Moroccan nimcha") are a common feature on many European sword hilts of the 15th cent., and were a design element probably picked up as a result of the incursions of the Portuguese in the region at end of the 1400s, and into the next century.

28th October 2006, 06:28 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Almost certainly a 'Nimcha' ...possibly Moroccan ....looks like a good functional example. I suggest you use the search this forum facillity (on the Ethnographic Weapons page with Nimcha .... All the best...

28th October 2006, 06:31 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A nimcha it is! Lew

28th October 2006, 08:43 PM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hello Hurthuma, I had one of those recently! These seem to be newly made swords, coming out of yemen. I 'dissected' my piece and sacrificed it to learn more about it. Unfortunately, it wasnt well made. The tang, although peened, is very thin, a rat-tail type construction. The blade also seems to be very brittle, and chips easily.

30th October 2006, 05:21 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	AFAIK the Moorocan swords are, like these S. Arabian/Swahili versions, natively known as saif/sayf. Certainly the relation between the two types is undeniably very close indeed, and there seems to be a certain amount of sharing with other Arabian sabres and those guardless Berbese ones that commonly have a hole thru the pommel.

30th October 2006, 08:16 PM	#11
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	Thank you good fellows. Very interesting to read what you have to say indeed. Alot is learned. Thank you again

31st October 2006, 07:36 AM	#12
frequent Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 7	that sewing of leather on the scabbard in the first pictures looks nice is it common on weapons?

31st October 2006, 07:59 AM	#13
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	scabbard stitching The leather covering and its stitching on this specimen looks new, based on its style and the rather smooth and clean condition of the surface. Antique scabbards from this part of the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula, and the Ottoman Empire) are typically covered with a type of leather with a granular, bumpy texture to it (the hide is usually from the donkey), the seam stitched with fine brass or silver wire in tight coils. My experience with these Zanzibar sabers is that the seam is frequently glued. On the better examples, the leather is quite thin, and is carefully tooled to conform to delicate ribbing and other designs incised into the wooden scabbard body.