new member, old keris

PeterP · 18th October 2013, 10:02 PM

First of all, thanks for allowing me to join this forum. Let me introduce myself first. My name is Peter Paul, and live in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. I'm an art historian who turned away from art, and now work as a props manager for the dutch national opera. The props department i work for not only makes and buys the props for our productions, we also manage the weapons room. We ocasionally buy, make and modify weapons for the productions. As such, once in a while I come across a piece which we don't need for one of our opera's, but which i personally like, and buy it for myself. A few of these are kerisses, and I would like to post a few of these to learn more about them. I will post them in seperate threads so things won't get mixed up.
The first one I actually bought when I was still in my teens (way back in the early seventies), and this is also my favorite. I really like this one. Maybe because of the easy flow of the waves, or the beautifully rendered elephants head. Also the metal of this keris seems different from the other ones I have. It feels smoother, and has a soft shine which the other ones don't have, they feel courser and more prickly. Also the colour of the metal is different. It hasn't seen any arsenic and lime for ages, so it has a soft brownish patine, but through which the pamor is still visible.
Well,I'll post some images and hope some of the members could pass judgement on this keris, and I hope somebody can tell me more about it's origins, age perhaps ( although I know this is very difficult to judge from o picture), pamor type and more.

Sajen · 19th October 2013, 12:36 AM

Hallo Peter,

it's late already in Germany but this blade you have there is one of the most interesting blades I have seen here for a long time. I need to look longer to your blade to tell you more as I can do for the moment. Pamor is wos wutah. Difficult to count the luks, five would say the most but could be seven also. And it is a Java blade. Do you have a scabbard? How long is the blade? It is not a new blade for sure but it is very good preserved.
I am sure that Alan will be able to tell you much more about your blade.

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 19th October 2013, 02:23 AM

You are not alone in finding this blade interesting, Detlef .

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2013, 07:30 AM

Thanks for your vote of confidence Detlef, but I'm afraid that Alan cannot say much about this blade at all.

Using the current convention of count I'd be inclined to give this as 5 luk, not 7; however, that said, this blade does demonstrate very clearly my proposition that the current convention of count adds 2 non-existent luk to the count.

I am not inclined to try to give this blade a classification in accordance with the tangguh system, but I would draw your attention to the very stiff gonjo, lack of erosion at the fine points of the ricikan and the form of the ron dha.

Place of origin is probably East Jawa.

Jean · 19th October 2013, 09:21 AM

This blade has a very peculiar dapur without pejetan especially.
Looking at the 4th picture from the top, it seems that the metal on the elephant head has a different colour from the base and no pamor lines as if if it had been patched later? Or am I overly suspicious?

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2013, 10:43 AM

It could be an addition Jean, but I think it is more likely to be original, probably an outer skin used during the manufacturing process.

Jean · 19th October 2013, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It could be an addition Jean, but I think it is more likely to be original, probably an outer skin used during the manufacturing process.

Thank you Alan, your opinion makes much sense since Peter bought it in the seventies but I found it unusual.

Peter, could you please show us the sheath if there is one?
Regards

PeterP · 19th October 2013, 12:04 PM

Well, first of all, thanks for your comments so far. As for the questions: the length of the blade is 41 cm including the peksi, 34 without. It has no dress, I bought it as it is now, with the same handle, which doesn't mean it is the original one. If I have a close look at the elephants head, it has the same colour and material expression as the rest of the keris, on the other side of the keris the pamorline of the head extends down towards the base and merges with the other lines, so I can't imagine it to be a later addition. I will post additional pictures later to give more details about the construction. Also the outer tip of the gonjo received a bump during it's life (I'm innocent) and is slightly bent.

asomotif · 19th October 2013, 09:31 PM

I like the blade.

A new stain and a better mendak would suit the blade imho.

PeterP · 20th October 2013, 11:07 PM

About the stain. A few of the kerisses I own I cleaned with pinapplejuice or limejuice to get rid of any rust, and they always came out dull and with the pores of the metal openend, which give it a rather course feel. I handled a few balinese kerisses which had a much smoother feel, like the keris I have. I recall reading in one of the posts that in earlier days the kerisses fom java received a treatment similar to the ones from bali. Could it be that this keris hasn't had a stain for a very long time, so the smoothness of the keris is the remains of the original stain. Just wondering, I'm trying to figure out why it has such a different feel from the other kerisses I own

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2013, 03:10 AM

Yes, the cleaning process will expose any material that does not have a tight grain. That's certain. If the material is good quality and the grain in the iron is tight cleaning only removes the rust and dirt. Often cleaning an old keris will result in the keris coming out of the cleaning solution --- pineapple juice, lime juice, citric acid, vinegar --- whatever --- looking as if it has just been stained. But you cannot compensate for poor quality material. If you have any doubts about the quality of material in a blade it is safer to clean it mechanically --- stones, wet & dry paper --- and then just lightly etch with vinegar or similar.

Balinese keris are not cleaned in the same way as Javanese keris, they are polished clean with sand, or with ground up lime stone. We can achieve the same finish with wet & dry paper.

Old keris that have been out of Jawa for a long time do very often have a smooth finish to the blade.

Sajen · 21st October 2013, 10:50 AM

Before cleaning and etching the blade I would look for a proper dress. A better mendak and a scabbard would be my first step. The blade don't show active corrosion so a cleaning will have time.

Regards,

Detlef

PeterP · 21st October 2013, 10:19 PM

Thanx again for your comments. As mr. Maisey draws our attention to certain aspects of this keris (the form of the gonjo and the ron dha, and the lack of erosion), could somebody explain me the implication of these features. I'm a novice concerning the finer points of keris knowledge so any help would be appreciated.
Two more additional pictures, one of the other side of the elephants head in which you can see the top layer extending beyond the head, and one from the top of the gonjo

18th October 2013, 10:02 PM	#1
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	new member, old keris First of all, thanks for allowing me to join this forum. Let me introduce myself first. My name is Peter Paul, and live in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. I'm an art historian who turned away from art, and now work as a props manager for the dutch national opera. The props department i work for not only makes and buys the props for our productions, we also manage the weapons room. We ocasionally buy, make and modify weapons for the productions. As such, once in a while I come across a piece which we don't need for one of our opera's, but which i personally like, and buy it for myself. A few of these are kerisses, and I would like to post a few of these to learn more about them. I will post them in seperate threads so things won't get mixed up. The first one I actually bought when I was still in my teens (way back in the early seventies), and this is also my favorite. I really like this one. Maybe because of the easy flow of the waves, or the beautifully rendered elephants head. Also the metal of this keris seems different from the other ones I have. It feels smoother, and has a soft shine which the other ones don't have, they feel courser and more prickly. Also the colour of the metal is different. It hasn't seen any arsenic and lime for ages, so it has a soft brownish patine, but through which the pamor is still visible. Well,I'll post some images and hope some of the members could pass judgement on this keris, and I hope somebody can tell me more about it's origins, age perhaps ( although I know this is very difficult to judge from o picture), pamor type and more. Attached Images

19th October 2013, 09:21 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This blade has a very peculiar dapur without pejetan especially. Looking at the 4th picture from the top, it seems that the metal on the elephant head has a different colour from the base and no pamor lines as if if it had been patched later? Or am I overly suspicious? Regards Last edited by Jean; 19th October 2013 at 09:56 AM.

21st October 2013, 10:19 PM	#13
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	Thanx again for your comments. As mr. Maisey draws our attention to certain aspects of this keris (the form of the gonjo and the ron dha, and the lack of erosion), could somebody explain me the implication of these features. I'm a novice concerning the finer points of keris knowledge so any help would be appreciated. Two more additional pictures, one of the other side of the elephants head in which you can see the top layer extending beyond the head, and one from the top of the gonjo Attached Images

19th October 2013, 12:36 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hallo Peter, it's late already in Germany but this blade you have there is one of the most interesting blades I have seen here for a long time. I need to look longer to your blade to tell you more as I can do for the moment. Pamor is wos wutah. Difficult to count the luks, five would say the most but could be seven also. And it is a Java blade. Do you have a scabbard? How long is the blade? It is not a new blade for sure but it is very good preserved. I am sure that Alan will be able to tell you much more about your blade. Regards, Detlef

19th October 2013, 02:23 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	You are not alone in finding this blade interesting, Detlef .

19th October 2013, 07:30 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Thanks for your vote of confidence Detlef, but I'm afraid that Alan cannot say much about this blade at all. Using the current convention of count I'd be inclined to give this as 5 luk, not 7; however, that said, this blade does demonstrate very clearly my proposition that the current convention of count adds 2 non-existent luk to the count. I am not inclined to try to give this blade a classification in accordance with the tangguh system, but I would draw your attention to the very stiff gonjo, lack of erosion at the fine points of the ricikan and the form of the ron dha. Place of origin is probably East Jawa.

19th October 2013, 10:43 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	It could be an addition Jean, but I think it is more likely to be original, probably an outer skin used during the manufacturing process.

19th October 2013, 12:04 PM	#8
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	Well, first of all, thanks for your comments so far. As for the questions: the length of the blade is 41 cm including the peksi, 34 without. It has no dress, I bought it as it is now, with the same handle, which doesn't mean it is the original one. If I have a close look at the elephants head, it has the same colour and material expression as the rest of the keris, on the other side of the keris the pamorline of the head extends down towards the base and merges with the other lines, so I can't imagine it to be a later addition. I will post additional pictures later to give more details about the construction. Also the outer tip of the gonjo received a bump during it's life (I'm innocent) and is slightly bent.

19th October 2013, 09:31 PM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	I like the blade. A new stain and a better mendak would suit the blade imho.

20th October 2013, 11:07 PM	#10
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	About the stain. A few of the kerisses I own I cleaned with pinapplejuice or limejuice to get rid of any rust, and they always came out dull and with the pores of the metal openend, which give it a rather course feel. I handled a few balinese kerisses which had a much smoother feel, like the keris I have. I recall reading in one of the posts that in earlier days the kerisses fom java received a treatment similar to the ones from bali. Could it be that this keris hasn't had a stain for a very long time, so the smoothness of the keris is the remains of the original stain. Just wondering, I'm trying to figure out why it has such a different feel from the other kerisses I own

21st October 2013, 03:10 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Yes, the cleaning process will expose any material that does not have a tight grain. That's certain. If the material is good quality and the grain in the iron is tight cleaning only removes the rust and dirt. Often cleaning an old keris will result in the keris coming out of the cleaning solution --- pineapple juice, lime juice, citric acid, vinegar --- whatever --- looking as if it has just been stained. But you cannot compensate for poor quality material. If you have any doubts about the quality of material in a blade it is safer to clean it mechanically --- stones, wet & dry paper --- and then just lightly etch with vinegar or similar. Balinese keris are not cleaned in the same way as Javanese keris, they are polished clean with sand, or with ground up lime stone. We can achieve the same finish with wet & dry paper. Old keris that have been out of Jawa for a long time do very often have a smooth finish to the blade.

21st October 2013, 10:50 AM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Before cleaning and etching the blade I would look for a proper dress. A better mendak and a scabbard would be my first step. The blade don't show active corrosion so a cleaning will have time. Regards, Detlef