Royal Indian Marine sword.

Alexander · 21st November 2010, 09:15 PM

Dear colleagues. I have bought Royal Indian Marine sword. But I have some questions:
On an edge and a hilt there is no letter I (India) and it confuses me.
I know that Royal Indian Marine have been formed in 1892. But absence of a letter on drives me on thought that is any earlier Indian fleet (till 1892).
If someone has more exact information write.
The information on a brand on an edge at me is, it Edward Thurkle, 5 Denmark St., Soho (1876-1899).
I look forward to hearing. Respect, Alexander.

Norman McCormick · 25th November 2010, 12:00 AM

Hi Alexander,
Can you post a close-up of the proof slug, i.e. the brass disc, that is set into the ricasso.
Regards,
Norman.

Alexander · 26th November 2010, 07:21 PM

Hi Norman,
I send a photo the ricasso.
Regards, Alexander.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2010, 07:33 AM

Hi Alexander,
This really is an attractive sword, and I like the rather bold etching and the heavy bronzed look of the hilt. This seems to correspond to the M1827 naval officers style hilt for the British Navy, which remains in use as I understand.

Thank you for adding the details on Edward Thurkle and on the 1892 date for use of the title Royal Indian Marine. From what I can find the service was named Bombay Marine 1863-1877. Between that time and the date you note it was termed Her Majestys Indian Marine.

As you note, Edward Thurkle was shown as maker 1876-1899, thus the sword must be presumed of that period. The proof mark is correct with T within the word PROVED. The makers name panel etched seems correct also.

I join you in concerns over the missing letter in the initials, and thought I might check into swords used by the Royal Marines, since the two initials with fouled anchor suggest that possibility.

In the National Maritime Museum (sword #WPN1366) there is a sword attributed to an officer of the Royal Marines. It is marked Edward Thurkle and Sons, and stated made between 1896-1899. It is a sheet steel guard which is of the M1896 infantry officers sword style, which was designed for the Royal Marines in that year, and quite different obviously than the naval type sword seen here.

Apparantly Mr. Thurkle died in 1899, as post that date, J.R.Gaunt and Sons must have taken over, as they mark blades, late E. Thurkle.

What is puzzling with the RM initials is that if the Royal Indian Marines took that name in 1892, though Thurkle was making swords since 1876, he would not have used such initials since they were Her Majestys Indian Marines.
In 1896, four years later, the sheet steel swords were introduced for the Royal Marines, so the question is would the Royal Marines have used the naval sword prior to that? and if they did, this would be a Royal Marines sword rather than Royal Indian Marines.

While the blade seems correctly marked, the hilt seems quite rough, with the crown either worn or poorly cast. I am unclear whether there is a royal cypher on the blade, which should be VRI (Victoria Regina India) as appears on the Royal Marines sword by Thurkle in the National Maritime Museum.

While I have added questions as much as some information, I hope this will serve as basework for more discussion. I dont have my May& Annis at hand, so anybody out there please check OK.

Very nice sword Alexander, and hopefully we'll get this figured out!

All the best,
Jim

thinreadline · 15th December 2010, 02:31 AM

I am not sure if I am seeing things or not, but on the handguard badge , where the anchor shaft meets the flukes, is not the shaft thickened to form the letter 'I' ? Thus making R I M .

21st November 2010, 09:15 PM	#1
Alexander Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Russia, Moscow. Posts: 48	Royal Indian Marine sword. Dear colleagues. I have bought Royal Indian Marine sword. But I have some questions: On an edge and a hilt there is no letter I (India) and it confuses me. I know that Royal Indian Marine have been formed in 1892. But absence of a letter on drives me on thought that is any earlier Indian fleet (till 1892). If someone has more exact information write. The information on a brand on an edge at me is, it Edward Thurkle, 5 Denmark St., Soho (1876-1899). I look forward to hearing. Respect, Alexander. Attached Images

26th November 2010, 07:21 PM	#3
Alexander Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Russia, Moscow. Posts: 48	Hi Norman, I send a photo the ricasso. Regards, Alexander. Attached Images

25th November 2010, 12:00 AM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Alexander, Can you post a close-up of the proof slug, i.e. the brass disc, that is set into the ricasso. Regards, Norman.

27th November 2010, 07:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Alexander, This really is an attractive sword, and I like the rather bold etching and the heavy bronzed look of the hilt. This seems to correspond to the M1827 naval officers style hilt for the British Navy, which remains in use as I understand. Thank you for adding the details on Edward Thurkle and on the 1892 date for use of the title Royal Indian Marine. From what I can find the service was named Bombay Marine 1863-1877. Between that time and the date you note it was termed Her Majestys Indian Marine. As you note, Edward Thurkle was shown as maker 1876-1899, thus the sword must be presumed of that period. The proof mark is correct with T within the word PROVED. The makers name panel etched seems correct also. I join you in concerns over the missing letter in the initials, and thought I might check into swords used by the Royal Marines, since the two initials with fouled anchor suggest that possibility. In the National Maritime Museum (sword #WPN1366) there is a sword attributed to an officer of the Royal Marines. It is marked Edward Thurkle and Sons, and stated made between 1896-1899. It is a sheet steel guard which is of the M1896 infantry officers sword style, which was designed for the Royal Marines in that year, and quite different obviously than the naval type sword seen here. Apparantly Mr. Thurkle died in 1899, as post that date, J.R.Gaunt and Sons must have taken over, as they mark blades, late E. Thurkle. What is puzzling with the RM initials is that if the Royal Indian Marines took that name in 1892, though Thurkle was making swords since 1876, he would not have used such initials since they were Her Majestys Indian Marines. In 1896, four years later, the sheet steel swords were introduced for the Royal Marines, so the question is would the Royal Marines have used the naval sword prior to that? and if they did, this would be a Royal Marines sword rather than Royal Indian Marines. While the blade seems correctly marked, the hilt seems quite rough, with the crown either worn or poorly cast. I am unclear whether there is a royal cypher on the blade, which should be VRI (Victoria Regina India) as appears on the Royal Marines sword by Thurkle in the National Maritime Museum. While I have added questions as much as some information, I hope this will serve as basework for more discussion. I dont have my May& Annis at hand, so anybody out there please check OK. Very nice sword Alexander, and hopefully we'll get this figured out! All the best, Jim

15th December 2010, 02:31 AM	#5
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	I am not sure if I am seeing things or not, but on the handguard badge , where the anchor shaft meets the flukes, is not the shaft thickened to form the letter 'I' ? Thus making R I M .