How to date a kilij, or similar sword

harrywagner · 3rd August 2015, 03:25 AM

I recently purchased this Arab kilij. I am confident that it is authentic but don't have any idea how old it is. I know this type of sword was common during the Ottoman period, but that spans a pretty long time. Any ideas on how to narrow down the possible date range for this sword?

Best regards,
Harry

A.alnakkas · 3rd August 2015, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I recently purchased this Arab kilij. I am confident that it is authentic but don't have any idea how old it is. I know this type of sword was common during the Ottoman period, but that spans a pretty long time. Any ideas on how to narrow down the possible date range for this sword?

Best regards,
Harry

Hey Harry,

Sorry to say but what you have is a Syrian reproduction. Its new but once you receive it, take close ups of the blade and maybe there is a chance its a redressed old blade. But I dont bet on it :-)

Kubur · 3rd August 2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Harry,

Sorry to say but what you have is a Syrian reproduction. Its new but once you receive it, take close ups of the blade and maybe there is a chance its a redressed old blade. But I dont bet on it :-)

I confirm, blade, guard, scabbard, grip, all recent. It's so hard to find these completly original... I almost fall in the trap twice this year...
Kubur

harrywagner · 3rd August 2015, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the replies. I'm no expert so this could be a modern sword. If so, it is a good fake. The Damascene on the blade (photos attached) has been done the old fashioned way. What makes you think this was made recently?

Harry

Kubur · 3rd August 2015, 08:14 PM

Hi Harry,
Just write these key words on Google or this forum: kilij pala ottoman Turkish.
You will see the shape of the hilt, the style of the grips, the quillons of the guard and the blades. Very different. Nevertheless in a recent publication in Riyad, half of their swords were of your kind and they were presented as originals... But they were just recent copies. Everybody does mistakes. But the best is to research by yourself, never believe someone in this forum without your own research. I got some silly answers on some daggers and swords that I presented and some members were completely wrong. Its just opinions by passionate collectors. But unfortunately for your sword there is no doubt...

harrywagner · 3rd August 2015, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks for the replies. I'm no expert so this could be a modern sword. If so, it is a good fake. The Damascene on the blade (photos attached) has been done the old fashioned way. What makes you think this was made recently?

Harry

This time WITH the photos. I must be getting old. Thanks to all that have answered. I am still a little confused. I think this is a kalij from the early 20th century (last years of the Ottoman empire) and I think it was probably made in what was then called Syria or somewhere on the Arab peninsula. Am I wrong about this? Thanks again.

Harry

harrywagner · 4th August 2015, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Harry,
Just write these key words on Google or this forum: kilij pala ottoman Turkish.
You will see the shape of the hilt, the style of the grips, the quillons of the guard and the blades. Very different. Nevertheless in a recent publication in Riyad, half of their swords were of your kind and they were presented as originals... But they were just recent copies. Everybody does mistakes. But the best is to research by yourself, never believe someone in this forum without your own research. I got some silly answers on some daggers and swords that I presented and some members were completely wrong. Its just opinions by passionate collectors. But unfortunately for your sword there is no doubt...

The recent publication in Riyad wouldn't happen to be "Weapons of the Islamic World: Swords & Armour" would it?

ALEX · 4th August 2015, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

The recent publication in Riyad wouldn't happen to be "Weapons of the Islamic World: Swords & Armour" would it?

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
A.Alnakkas and Kubur are absolutely right. This sword was made in Syria in the late 20th, not early 20th century!. it is recent reproduction, not antique. the coftgari silver overlay technique has not changed since old times, and is being made right now using the same methods.

harrywagner · 4th August 2015, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
A.Alnakkas and Kubur are absolutely right. This sword was made in Syria in the late 20th, not early 20th century!. it is recent reproduction, not antique. the coftgari silver overlay technique has not changed since old times, and is being made right now using the same methods.

Thanks Alex, A. Alnakkas and Kubur. I am surprised. Someone really went to a lot of work to make this look old. I paid a nice price for it, although only a fraction of what I expect the real thing would cost.

harrywagner · 4th August 2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
.

Wow. I am surprised. This is one of the books I rely upon regularly. I have not heard that it included modern reproductions. Is that the general consensus here? I hope you are not going to tell me I can't trust Tiri or Elgood either!

Oliver Pinchot · 5th August 2015, 02:48 AM

You can certainly trust Elgood

ALEX · 5th August 2015, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Wow. I am surprised. This is one of the books I rely upon regularly. I have not heard that it included modern reproductions. Is that the general consensus here? I hope you are not going to tell me I can't trust Tiri or Elgood either!

This book has many composition swords, old blades with new fittings, almost all are missdated. new swords look like book examples because this is where the "artists" get their ideas from or use authentic as models. One must rely on real life knowledge and experience, not the books alone.

Ian · 5th August 2015, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

You can certainly trust Elgood

Harry:

Oliver emphasizes the positive, and I agree completely--Robert Elgood is a serious scholar of edged weapons.

You should check this site by searching for "Elgood" or "Tirri" to see what other members have to say about their respective books. You may be surprised.

Ian.

ward · 5th August 2015, 07:54 PM

Elgood is a a well respected researcher and author.
Tirri is a wealthy man who published his collection and than later sold that collection.
Different approaches and reasons to write. Take it for what it is.

Kubur · 5th August 2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

This book has many composition swords, old blades with new fittings, almost all are missdated. new swords look like book examples because this is where the "artists" get their ideas from or use authentic as models. One must rely on real life knowledge and experience, not the books alone.

Let me add that some of these swords are completely fakes.
and yes, almost all are missdated.

A.alnakkas · 6th August 2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Let me add that some of these swords are completely fakes.
and yes, almost all are missdated.

The collection in the book is identified by the same dealers that provided them. So that explains alot :-))

3rd August 2015, 03:25 AM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	How to date a kilij, or similar sword I recently purchased this Arab kilij. I am confident that it is authentic but don't have any idea how old it is. I know this type of sword was common during the Ottoman period, but that spans a pretty long time. Any ideas on how to narrow down the possible date range for this sword? Best regards, Harry Attached Images

3rd August 2015, 01:56 PM	#4
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Modern? Thanks for the replies. I'm no expert so this could be a modern sword. If so, it is a good fake. The Damascene on the blade (photos attached) has been done the old fashioned way. What makes you think this was made recently? Harry

3rd August 2015, 08:14 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, Just write these key words on Google or this forum: kilij pala ottoman Turkish. You will see the shape of the hilt, the style of the grips, the quillons of the guard and the blades. Very different. Nevertheless in a recent publication in Riyad, half of their swords were of your kind and they were presented as originals... But they were just recent copies. Everybody does mistakes. But the best is to research by yourself, never believe someone in this forum without your own research. I got some silly answers on some daggers and swords that I presented and some members were completely wrong. Its just opinions by passionate collectors. But unfortunately for your sword there is no doubt...

5th August 2015, 02:48 AM	#11
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	You can certainly trust Elgood

5th August 2015, 07:54 PM	#14
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Elgood is a a well respected researcher and author. Tirri is a wealthy man who published his collection and than later sold that collection. Different approaches and reasons to write. Take it for what it is.