Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[corrado26]

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by corrado26

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Robert, this is in my opinion a brilliant answer to a most obscure question, that is, what in the world were these notches for? which has vexed me for over two decades. As discussed through this thread it seems the most notable presence of this notch at the back of the blade near the tip was on Austrian swords (Wagner, Prague,1967) as shown in as many as 6 or 8 swords (cannot recall offhand).

As these were drawings, I could not fathom why an artist would include such a feature unless it was deliberately placed in the place, and not some random damage as suggested to me by some who I queried. I did confirm with the museums where the actual examples drawn by Wagner were held, and these swords did indeed have the 'notch'.

In fencing, as you certainly know, in fencing, that is combat or duel oriented, the element of distraction by inflicting a wound was of course practiced in various instances. Bear with me as I try to recall...in Italy(originally) the 'stramazone' was a slashing cut swept across the face, especially forehead,causing of course heavy bleeding.

In Scotland, the placement of extended wrist guards on basket hilts was to protect from the wrist cut.

It makes perfect sense that a small notch creating a sharp barb would be remarkably effective for such a typically unexpected backhand move contrary to the expected passes and parries.
In the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) Spaniards used unexpected moves like this with blows to the head or face creating the same distractive result.

This is the first entirely reasonable explanation that seems to make perfect sense. The notions of this inconsequential notch to pick up objects off the ground or to worsen the wound in a thrust both seem patent nonsense but understandably suggested when trying to find a pragmatic solution.

Like many things in actual practice, especially with dueling, which was typically a situation which was formally forbidden, outlawed etc. and with many combat oriented conventions, these would not, understandably, be well documented, if at all.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you!!

[toaster5sqn]

Thank you Jim, but it's still just an idea until someone finds some evidence.

Regarding the wrist guards on Scottish broadswords, fencing manuals from Scotland actually detail various techniques for cutting to the wrist or forearm. This was because disabling the weapon hand was a guaranteed duel win without the risk of being charged with murder for killing your opponent.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

You're right Robert ,
of course the chances of finding documented evidence, as often the case in these kinds of obscure details is pretty slim. The guys writing here have mentioned this type of slashing cut in previous posts, and depending on what sources from which they may have acquired their notations, if not connected might suggest corroboration. Still, at best, we only have reasonable plausibility, but intriguing just the same.

[rysays]

What's possibly relevant is this line from Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillard's "Essai sur le duel" (1836), where notched or chipped swords are expressly forbidden in the duel with epee:

"Les lames des épées ne doivent , dans aucun cas , être tranchantes ni ébréchées."

This apparently refers to the practice of intentional sharpening or chipping the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes that were decided by blood. However, there's no mention of notches in the code for the duel with sabers- only that the combatants must wield swords of the same mount, style, & length. Separate provisions are made for saber duels with or without points, but specific blade prohibitions like with the epee are absent. It's possible that the practice of notching sabers had fallen out of fashion in France by the time of this text & was unknown to the author, or it could be that it was acceptable practice & didn't bear mentioning. There is a requirement for duelists to wear either a glove or a handkerchief to protect the hand, so the advantage of such a notch may have lost its usefulness by this time. Another possibility could lie in Germanic dueling traditions, as the majority of these blades seem to be from regions where the mensur would become popular.

[Jim McDougall]

RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling.
As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches.

In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident.

It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer.
You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries.

A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating.
While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed.

While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective.

Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted.
In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward.

Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry.
It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects.