machetes,, regional styles..

[ausjulius]

has anyone here got a collection of different machetes from specific regions in south america?
as there seems realy to be a good deal of regional difference in sheath handle and blade shape and use..

also i do wounder if there is any localy made patterns of machete in africa , as it appears that the machete comming to africa in a european introduction and so the patterns used are introduced patterns... i wounder if there is a local style that is localy made.??

anyone have any good reference on the history of the machete and the different styles that wer epopular at different times??

(i have a serious machette adiction... they are just such useful tools )

[RSWORD]

This should provide a good start for you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/index.html

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

This should provide a good start for you.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/index.html

hahar,, ah yes i have already read this some time back.

has anyone got any drawings or pictures of the mentioned "wacking sticks" used by the natives.. and what area is this refering to brazil and the south or mexico and the central america??


does anyone know who was the first firm to commercialy produce machetes?

i woudl think some firm in spain but i guess maybe, more likely england due to the advancement in hot rolling there in the 18th centuray..

has anyone and information on regional types and historical regional types , that maybe are no longer common??

ive seen quite some variation in the handles of the machetes on mexican machetes alone.. some being quite fancy with several spurs or a lather large hook on the pommel sometimes almost shaped like a z, and it seems these are from specific regions,,
some have partial tangs some full , some tapered.. ect ect
ive notices also brazil and the caribbein winding the grip with wire is popular..
also is having a carved pommel on these hidden tang machetes.. normaly a dog s head or a boot or the head ot a rooster or such is common,

also i have noticed sheath style is quite different in each area,, there seems to be quite a few way that the sheaths belt loop is produced,, each more common in one specific area..

machetes rely facinate me as they are a "new" style of ethnographic knife .. that had not exisisted until recently .. but now is so wiedspread around the world..

anyone got any good collection with information about the reginonal popularity of specific models ??

[Berkley]

While not really responsive to your question, you might find this of interest regarding African machetes.
I acquired this well-used Masai seme some time back, and upon examination it was obvious that it started life as a plastic-handled factory-made machete. In tracking down the manufacturer's mark, I discovered that a principal source of contemporay machete production is China, which was the original source for my creatively recycled machete.

[ausjulius]

haha interesting , yes "diamond brand" the make copies of martindales products, hoes and machetes ect ect,, ive found their machetes normaly much harder than martindales and cannot be sharpened with a file..
normaly stiffer also... i remember when i lives in australia diamond brand goloks were common , . the quality varied greatly ,, but actualy several i owned were better than the original :O others were much worse..

it is interesting that there is not a firm producing masi knives anymore.. ive seen old english made seme blades.. but all ive seen were forged blades...

interesting machete

[Gonzalo G]

I find many questionable statements in that article. From the concept of the machete, to the history of it´s development in America and it´s types. The machete, as we actually know it, is the result of an evolution which begins in Spain, and not with the whacking sticks of aboriginal americans. This evolution implies many diverse forms, geometries and measures, some of which are reflected on the actual machetes. The machete has been, historically, a tool and a weapon, even today, no matter the intentions of their actual manofacturers. We produce and use still today in Mexico, machetes with hanguards and elaboratedly hilts with eagle pommels decorated with silver, and blades with etched inscriptions tipical of the motos used on the military swords. And people use them as a weapon.

Tough the machete have been progressively used more as a tool than as a weapon, since it´s origins and difussion throught the spanish army, and latter throught the spanish settlers, the machetes were used by the commoneers to make war or to work on the fields in agricultural and cattle raising activities. The spanish army, by Royal Order of october 5th, 1841, adopted the machete for all the infantry and provincial militias, since the saber "...in the present cirumstances and the actual state in the art of the war, it is a a bothersome and impeding weapon on the march and manoeuvres, useless on encampments and combats". (Free traslation form a quote made by José Luis Calvó, a distinguished researcher on this subject, on his article "Sables, Espadas y Machetes Distintivo de Clases de a Pié I", page 27). In other words, the machete was adopted as the sidearm of the infantry, artillery and engineer corps since then.

This, conducted to the development of some colonial versions of the military machete on Cuba and the Phillipines, and influenced the versions of this weapon in Mexico, thought independent from Spain since 1821. The very war of independence of Mexico, and latter the civil wars and the wars made against foreign interventionist countries, were made with the massive use of the machete as a sidearm. It can be said that agicultural implements were used in all the world to make wars, but as I stated, the machete was also specifically a weapon, and it took several military types which still survive. The traditional machete was not the actual laminated thin blade massively produced, but has a tapered blade aproximately 5mm thick at their beginning, and has the profile of a wedge. Examples survive on mexican museums.

The actual machete is the result of the industrialized and cheap version of it, designed by countries foreign to this tradition, in order to satisfy the needs of the markets of the less industrialized countries. Hardly an "ethnic" edged tool, or just as ethnic, as the bowies made for the United States on the Sheffield factories in England in the 19th Century, with which the machete shares the fact of being a tool and a weapon. Is as ethnic, as the malayan-indonesian edged weapons made by Valiant Co. And though many of this less indutrialized countries actually make the same cheap models, their direct origin is found in Collins, the Solingen factories and other manofacturers in Europe and the United States. Another thing is to study the traditional old machete.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[ausjulius]

indeed this is true.
as the older types of machete are all more weapon than tool like ,, it is only the middle of the 19th centuary when the agriculturial type seem to become more and more the common form

is there still any machete production being undertaken on any scale in mexico?? or any makers that are producing high quality machetes by hand?

also how common are the regional styles of machete still in mexico?
and what sort of regional knives are still used?

[Gonzalo G]

Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone.

Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone.

Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool.
My best regards

Gonzalo

hello gonzalo..
yes weaponry as kindjas and the shashka are rather interesting indeed..
although the thing that draws me to machetes is the surpurbe utility,, while many styles are still a most lethal weapon they are also a very handy tool , and a tool that most nearly all people in all climates will have some use for..
i actualy grew up in australia in the northern territory,, . where machetes are rather common in use.. ,, actualy i aquired my interest in the as i spent the first part of my childhood in new zealand,, and in the rural area billhooks, hacks and pole bills , slashers ect ect were still common, when it was ragwort or thistle season we use to go out an make combat against these with various edged tools..

from there my interest was born and later on in australia i used a machete on many occasions for work or camping or as a kid in the bush,, the climate in the north would proably be close to some southern parts of mexico,,
hot humid whet/dry climate. rocky with lots of grass, bush and thorny plants,,something like the southern brazil

have you any pictures of these regional styles that are still used,

regards, julius

[Gonzalo G]

I don´t, but I have three different machetes of very diverse kinds, one of them hand made, if you want to see it. But you have to wait a little to let me take the pictures.

Some old machetes have been confused as espadas anchas, as there is some confussion about the concept of espada ancha and the concept of the machete.

Regards
Gonzalo

[ausjulius]

yes i would be most interested to see any pictures you have , is there any information on the internet that may show the specific styles used in mexico,, and other south american countries?

[Jim McDougall]

Gonzalo, that dissertation on the machete is a beautifully written piece of work, and extremely well said! I'm saving that for my notes.
It is also fascinating to see individuals from two distant cultures with interests in each others weaponry , especially as I also have deep interests in the weapons of Mexico as well as the Caucusus.

I agree Gonzalo, that there has often been a great deal of confusion between machetes and the extremely intriguing espada ancha. I think there were differences in the espada ancha in those of Northern Mexico, being heavier bladed as the heavy vegetation of the Sonoran desert certainly warranted these for utility as well as a weapon. Although the term 'espada ancha' of course meant wide heavy bladed sword, the more ornate examples with the familiar 'dragoon' broadsword blades seem to have been more for wear on the rancheros, than by those soldados or vaqueros in the rugged terrain in Northern Mexico and New Spain.

If one is looking at an old Collins Co. catalog, it is incredibly surprising to see many of the old machetes, with blades remarkably like old Solingen blades and overall looking very shashka like!. Not a comparison, but an interesting note.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

The Espada ancha was used in all the presidios of the northern frontiers, including those on my state, almost as arid as the sonorean. I can´t disclose much information about the espada ancha, as a friend of mine, in my state, is making a research on this weapon, and I don´t want to anticipate on his work. Much of the information I have, comes from this source. And of course, from the espadas anchas I have seen here, on the hands of friend collectors. The espada ancha has not a fixed type, there are variations. As I understand the old manuscripts where the characteristics of the uniforms and weapons of the presidio soldiers are established, have some mentions of this point. But there was, also, heavy bladed short machetes, as the espadas anchas, and this fact permitted the confussions. But this is another subject. Latter I will post the machetes, but all of them are modern. I use them as working tools. I can trade them for shashkas or other dagestani weapons, you know...
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional clarification Gonzalo. I well understand your respecting the work in progress of your friend, and I am really looking forward to seeing more in depth study on these fascinating swords. I have been intrigued by them since one these was one of the first weapons I owned in my younger years in Southern California. Not really knowing what it was I traded it off at some point, and years later was devastated when my interests turned to the Spanish Colonial weapons, and I realized my loss.

Because of the many variations and the commonality of both machetes and the espada anchas, it is truly difficult to establish regional and chronological order in studying them, or at least I have found that to be so. The Mexican blacksmiths of the frontier were brilliant at the use of materials at hand, and remarkably adept at returning weapons or parts of them to servicability. This is one of the many factors that make the study of the colorful history of Mexico through its weapons so incredibly fascinating!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Billman]

The working tool of Europe, used in all countries from Scanadinavia to North Africa, and from Britain to Russia was the billhook. First developed in Mesopotania (now Iran/Iraq) it spread eastwards into Indo China and west into the Ancient Greek Empire and thus throughout the Mediterranean regions. With the Romans it spread further into mainland Europe, although in England it was being used prior to the Roman invasions c 50AD... Originally cast in bronze, by the late Iron Age the types now seen being used for coppice work and hedge laying were already in common usage.

Machete like blades were used in Roman times, but I guess that it these developed later, especially after the Spanish colonisation of the Americas - and were probably a specialised version of the infantry sword.... In Northern Europe the Fascine Knife, with a straight blade, became the infantry general purpose tool, but in France Italy and England the curved billhook was widely used by the armies..

Billhooks are not all concave: straight edged blades and even convex blades exist in some regions and some have a back blade as well. Fitted to a long handle it becomes the slasher or England and the croissant of France, and develops into the bills & halberds of the medieval foot soldier... Hudreds of regional patterns exist in England and France, and one French maker, Talabot, boasted they held patterns for over 3000 types (ref their catalogue c 1935).

Post the Industrial Revolution, England led the world in steel making and tool making, and by the mid 19th century exported more tools to the colonies than the rest of the world combined....

If you want to look at the history of the machete, you need to go back further, and look at the history of the billhook...

[ausjulius]

billman,
thanks, but the billhook and the machete are two unrelated tools with quite different natures,
the machete is a purely central American invention.. there is also south and central american billhooks and some billhooks dressed out like machetes even , but they are two different fish.
the billhook is a fascinating tool with great variation i have a collection of these tools and related hack knives as well

but by comparison there is a lot of material on billhooks and a lot of old ones to be had,
where as the machete is seems to be less easy to collect in any range and the quality or interesting pieces are mostly in the south and central American nations.. and product of a factory nature was far less varied and not destined to the producers home country.....

so the locally made ones are really what one has to look at as a machete... and the others a re machete like tools..
because as the billhooks were made for the people who used them the factory made machete was made just for a box in a warehouse 99% of the time..
probably one can say a lack of a direct like to ones market caused this..

by the time these nations in the americas industrilized the cheap thin machetes from american adn european producers had taken hold in the locak factories..

but you look even today you can get a billhook with no lesser quality or different materials and function than one from 200 years ago from southern and central European makers , and still there is a range of regional styles produced..



.

[VANDOO]

THERE ARE MANY POSTS TO BE FOUND IN THE FORUM AND FORUM ARCHIVES SEARCH USING MACHETE. ONE OLD ONE I REMEMBER THAT WAS FUN WAS POSTED BY THERION, 12/01/2002 TITLED "THE ELISIVE MEXICAN CHICKEN-FACE HUMP-BACK MACHETE" IT STILL HAS SOME PICTURES. ENJOY SORRY I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT HERE.

[fearn]

I agree that the billhook and the machete are different beasts.

However, I think we need to remember what ethnographic is about (at least in my opinion).

Ethnographic does not mean hand made, it means an artifcat of a culture, used to understand that culture.

The interesting thing about the machete is its ethnography. There are certainly handmade machetes (gorgeous ones, even), but "standard" machetes are a product on the industrial age. Industrial practices allowed the creation of the thin, highly tempered steel blades characteristic of most machetes, and colonialism, imperial politics, and global trade meant that these blades were distributed all over the world (as trade, industrial, and military goods), based on designs from all over the world, and locally modified from industrial products all over the world.

In a real sense, machetes are the ultimate "trade blades," and as ethnographic objects, we need to study them as pieces of our global culture, not exotic artifacts.

My 0.000002 cents,

F

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THERE ARE MANY POSTS TO BE FOUND IN THE FORUM AND FORUM ARCHIVES SEARCH USING MACHETE. ONE OLD ONE I REMEMBER THAT WAS FUN WAS POSTED BY THERION, 12/01/2002 TITLED "THE ELISIVE MEXICAN CHICKEN-FACE HUMP-BACK MACHETE" IT STILL HAS SOME PICTURES. ENJOY SORRY I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT HERE.

Here you go

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001351.html

Gav

[Billman]

Glad to have opend up the debate a little, but I disagree that the machete is purely a south american tool. As far as I am aware there was little or no iron and steel working in the Americas prior to the European colonial period. Thus the tool was a European introduction.

Prior to discovering the Americas the Europeans had already colonised or visited much of Asia and the Far , which did have a history of ironworking which probably spread from India in the west, and China and Japan in the east into the Pacific Rime countries.

One only has to look at the wide range of ethnographic weapons/tools in the Rijksmuseum (Museum Volkenkunde) at Leiden http://www.rmv.nl/index.aspx?lang=en or http://www.rmv.nl/zoek_collectie.asp...rchfor1=parang to see a wide range of Far Eastern machete type blades...

It is likely (not proven?) that the long blade proved more useful as a tool for clearing scrub and jungle than the traditional hooks shaped tools common in Europe (although not all European billhooks are concave, some are straight and some are convex) and coupled with the fact that the first colonisers of the Americas were accompanied by sailors, armed with cutlasses - it was a natural progression to take a proven tool to the new land... which is why both machetes and bilhooks are common in Central and Southern America...

The long, thin and relatively wide blade of a machete is not easy to forge, compared to a relatively short billhook, so it is likely it was not a common tool until after a cheap source of reliable steel was available to replace the steel welded to iron methods used to produce the billhook. By the time the right metal was available the methods of mass production were also being introduced into edge tool production, and in England, Sheffield and Birmingham were at the leading edge of technological advancement in cutlery and tool making in the world...

Many machetes have handle scales riveted directly to an extension of the blade, not common on traditional tools or weapons from either Spain or England (altough this method of handling is used on billhooks from Southern France and Italy - and on the cheap imported ones flooding in from India and China..).

I have not seen enough early machetes to see if they are handled with a tang as per swords, cutlasses (and many types of billhook)....

Two machete style blades with tanged handles can be seen at website for Old Tools in France, http://outils-anciens.xooit.fr/t1883...r-une-lame.htm - the origins of both blades are uncertain....

[kronckew]

this thread needs more pictures, so just as a reminder, i'll post the picture of my silver eagle hilted acapulco style machete, made in oaxaca, which is also posted & discussed by us earlier here. Linky

[Rick]

The Collins Machetes were tempered in molten lead .

Just a tidbit .

[Gonzalo G]

It seems that the machete is a spanish colonial weapon-tool. Though there is not certainty about the origin of the name, the most accepted explanation relates its origin to a some kind of diminutive of the word "macho", the last used also in the sense of "work", or "the work made by a men" in the area of Mexico and some other countries in Central America, where it has a meaning of "work made on the field".

The morpholgy and concept of the machete has changed through the centuries, as it originally included straight two edged blades. The machete as we know it, seems to have developed originally in the spanish colonial dominion of the Virreinato de la Nueva España (Viceroyalty of the New Spain), which included not only what actually is Mexico, but also part of Central America (yes, Mexico is part of North America, together with the USA and Canada). The word "machete" itself, comes from the Castilian, which now is the offical languaje of Spain, and its adoption in the rest of the occidental world is proof that it does not existed an equivalent weapon-tool there before.

The older machetes are Spanish, made with Spanish blades, though latter blades were also purchased in the USA in the 19th century. In many cases, the blades were made in Spain but handled in the colonies. The industrial revolution and the mass cheap production of blades displaced Spain from the world markets, so England and the USA became new world producers of machetes. It was also a consecuence of the needs from their respective colonies.

I think there are another aboriginal tool-weapons in other parts of the world that, if not with the same exact morphology of the machete, they serve to the same exact purpose. But the lineage of the machete as we know it, I believe it comes from colonial Spanish-America, and more specifically, from the area of the old Virreinato de la Nueva España, though some of their modern forms were designed by the producers from the anglo-saxon world. Today, some countries from Latin America produce their own machetes, and Mexico has the more diversification of forms of handles and blades.

I would wonder if the blades from Collins were tempered or hardened in molten lead, since if tempered it would would imply an unnecessary step, as the blades could be directly hardened in molten lead without the need of futher tempering, but I can be mistaken.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Billman]

The OED gives machete as an alternative spelling for MATCHET (also machet and macheto) - first written reference (at least in English) is given as 1598. The definition is a broad and heavy knife or cutlass, used especially in Central Americas and the West Indies as both a tool and a weapon. Its similarities to the early (and somewhat primitive) naval cutlasses used by the ordinary sailors (not the swords of the officers) in both English and Spanish navies cannot be ignored...

Later machetes may have been manufactured locally, but with little or no metalworking technology present (certainly not in iron and steel, except possibly for meteoritic iron) before the colonisation, all tools and weapoons must have been made in the home country. Spain like the UK had a long history of edge tool making, and use of locally made billhooks and sickles, as well as knife and sword making...

I would guess that machetes were of no real importance until after the slave trade started, and a work force to use them came into being... Pre 1600 only about half a million slaves had been transported - after that date the trade expanded considerably... 35% of all slaves were sent to Brazil (a Portugese speaking colony) and 22% went to Spanish speaking colonies...

See http://www.slaverysite.com/Body/fact...%20figures.htm

There is no doubt that the machete developed for use in countries dominated by the Spanish and Portugese - but we still need to confirm where the first ones were made - in the home country or the colonies.... I do not know much about the early cutlasses, but it is possible large ships carried spare blades packed into boxes for handling as and when the need arose... Once in the New World these could have been used as tools rather than weapons. The machete blade, without a handle can similarly be closely packed for transport.

Another area for further reseach is the Sugar Trade - a wide variety of cane knives, some shaped like billhooks and some shaped like machetes exist... Columbus took cuttings of sugar cane on his voyage of 1492. Hispaniola had its first sugar harvest in 1501 and the Portugese had established sugar cane in Brazil by the early 16th century...

"Approximately 3,000 small mills built before 1550 in the New World created an unprecedented demand for cast iron gears, levers, axles and other implements. Specialist trades in mold-making and iron-casting developed in Europe due to the expansion of sugar production. Sugar mill construction developed technological skills needed for a nascent industrial revolution in the early 17th century."

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sugar

As well as machinery they needed tools for harvesting the cane...

Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). Tin however melts at 231.93 degrees, and lead tin alloys (commonly known as solders) reduce the melting point to 183 degrees, adding other metals (such as Bismuth) can lower the temperature as low as 95 degrees (in the 1950's you could buy trick spoons that melted in a cup of hot tea) - so lead/tin/bisimuth alloys could be used for tempering - but temperature control is critical a few degrees +/- can render a blade too hard and brittle or too soft to hold an edge....

As always, much more research is needed -less speculation and less apocryphal stories (hypotheses are OK if they can lead to answers being either supported or repudiated)

[Rick]

" Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). "

There you go then, eh ?
I got my information from an Industry trade magazine from the late 40's . There was a picture intensive article about the Collins company .
One photo showed a worker dipping the blades into some molten liquid .
The caption mentioned they were tempered in lead .
Carter Rila may now possess this issue; or it is in my library ..somewhere .

Right now the house is all ahoo with remodeling; should I stumble across the magazine ,(if still in my library) I will be more than glad to reference the publication .

[Gonzalo G]

Well, I don´t know if the response by Billman was directed to me, but there are several points to answer.

I never said that the machetes were pre-hispanic. Obviously they were not, since there was not iron metallurgy in America as to make this kind of blades. Tough initial development of some kind of iron working in some American pre-hispanic areas is actually discussed, it is without doubt that iron weaponry came with the spaniards, and this a too well known fact. What I said, is that they were Spanish-colonial, which is a very different matter. Of course, the machetes, or some of their components, were manufacturated just latter in the American colonies.

On other side, there is a contradiction in saying that the machetes were used in whatever is uderstood by some authors as "Central America" (singular), and saying that the early word used to designate this item was "matchet", as it does not come from any Spanish or native American word; and in this specific philological matter I prefer the studies made by spanish-speaking scholars. If in english this word was, or is, used, it is irrelevant to the purpose of establishing the origin of the word machete itself, as this last word was forged from the spanish castilian and has no traces of American indian roots. Maybe the original word from the castilian was mispelled or misunderstood when passed to the english in some era, after the 16th century, as it was often in castilian with many names from other languajes. Or maybe there was another weapon known as matchet somewhere else.

As far as I know, the machete is not as old as the 16th century, at least with this name. It is not included in any relation, reference, inventory, law, guild regulation or Spanish document from that epoch, or in the actual researches made by the Spanish scholars on this subject about that epoch. I would like to see any research or primary source in english about machetes from the 16th century, apart from actual third party references. Of course, in english some authors make their own studies and classifications of the Spanish colonial weapons, more often than not having any knowledge of the Spanish sources, or even any knowledge about the spanish-castilian languaje, so that naturally great gaps and strange classifications and misunderstandings appear, as in the case of the so-called "Caribbean Rapier". And very recently enough on this forum some machetes (they were believed to be swords) were a mystery and no reference was found among the english-speaking authors or scholars about them, and speculations were made about their origin in all the continents except Europe. Of course there is a lot of research to do. But first it is necessary to know the actual, existing, sources in other languajes, and there are MANY books and articles about Spanish, Spanish-colonial and Latin American Weapons which are not read in the anglo-saxon world due language-related problems.

Speaking of the Portuguese, it is known that Portugal was once part of the Spanish Empire. I don´t know to a which point the Portuguese weapons were influenced by the Spanish, since I don´t have knowledge about the Portuguese weapons, but for a minumum. In this sense, I also don´t know if the use of the machete among the Portuguese came from the Spanish people, or from other source, but this last case is unlikely.

The machete has much of a relation with the labour in the field, no matter if the workers were slaves or not. I must state that the use of slavery in Mexico AND Central America was not intensive, and though some black decendants do exist today, already much mixed with indians and the so called "caucasian", they are few. In the case of other Latin American countries is a different case. Cuba in the Spanish Caribbean, Peru, Colombia and Venezuela, and also the portuguese Brasil, those last in South America, were cases of a much more intensive use of the black slave labour. The presence of black people in Panama (Central America) came from South America. But the use of the machete was also very widely difussed, and still is, among the aboriginal indians (again: this, does not remotely mean that they had machetes before the arrival of the Spaniards) and in general among all the rural population.

There is also a contradiction in saying that the first machetes were from the 16th century, and saying that it is not actually known if the first machetes were made locally in "Central Americas" (whatever that means) or in in the "home country", since in other part of this post is said, accurately, that in this time America has not a developed iron-steel metallurgy, and I must add, not even from meterorites. Of course the first machetes were made on Spain. There is no doubt about it. At least, not among the spanish speaking people. Although the city-state Tenochtitlan was conquered at the beginning of the 16th century, the rest of the conquest lasted at least the rest of the 16th century and there was no Spanish production of blades in Mexico in that time, and less in Central America, mostly unexplored. Perhaps Spanish blades were rehilted or modified if broken to make smaller weapons. The older references we have about the machetes, among others, come from old royal ordinances regulating their extensive use in the Spanish army, when machetes were already well known there from time ago. The first known models were items with handguards and very diverse forms of blades, not having other thing in common but for beign shorter than a Spanish sword of that time. Not a specific morphology in any way, except for the size, and they could be shorter versions of swords, without resemblance to the latter machetes.

Also, the resemblance of the machete with the naval cutlass is just that, and the naval cutlass also it is not a product of the 16th century or before (the century given by the reference), as to be the ancestor of the machete. There is no genealogical relation. The Spanish navy had not, as far as I know, any regulated patterns of naval machete before the appearance to the first models, and the older ordinances about this subject are established extensively just for the army forces (on land, of course), probably before the appearance of the cutlasses. Any of the very diverse forms of earlier machetes does not resemble a naval cutlass, especially in the forms of the hilts. There are extensive articles about this machetes, and books where they are referenced and illustrated. And speaking about their ancestry, Spain had its own long tradition with this kind of shorter weapons, specially from arabic influence, as the terciados and the so-called alfanjes and scimitars, though those last two terms only generically designated in Spanish shorter weapons, some of them curved, and as I see it there is no actual agreement about all their specific forms. In any case, part of actual Spain was dominated by the Arabs to the 15th century, a fact which gave to the Spanish kingdoms the opportunity to have both all the influences form Europe, and those from Nort Africa and the Middle East, which was reflected on their weaponry and tools. On other side, the very close relation of the terciado with the alfanje and machete was already established by German Dueñas Beraiz, one of the main living scholars on Spanish weapons, in his "Introducción al Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas: Siglos XVI Y XVII" (Introduction to the Typological Study of the Spanish Swords: 16th and 17th Centuries) , in Gladius, No. XXIV, 2004, pp.209-260. This article is open in the site of Gladius. There are also some articles about ordinance machetes of the Spanish Army in this website, to which years ago I already posted a link in this forum:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp


I could also post an original bibliography on Spanish weapons, including the machetes, although of course, all this material is writen in spanish language. There is a lot of research on this sources and not speculation. There are, also, the open sources like the indispensable Gladius, which can be consulted for free in internet, with some articles written in english and french, though most of them in spanish.

On the other side, the Spanish had no much contact with South Asia, except through the Portugese, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the south asian weapons and tools have influenced to a minimal point the Spanish production, and none of the abundant sources remotely consider this possible influence. All this, despite the existing trade with wootz from India to Spain to the mid-19th century.

The bill hooked blades never were called "machetes" in America. They do were used, but recived other names. In Mexico, they are still used in working with the magueyes (agaves from which are extracted fibers, honey of some kind consumed as beverage or fermented to make pulque, an aboriginal alcoholic beverage, and from their hearts is also extracted by boiling a liquid which properly destilated produces mezcal and its specific variety named tequila)

Finally, I only need to emphasize that I said before that the machete AS WE ACTUALLY KNOW IT, probably comes from a Mexican-Central America development, though a development made from Spanish-colonial era which latter evolved in specific local models or variants, some of them very large in relation to the original and as long as a saber, though the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language still continues to define the machete as a short edged "heavy" weapon (meaning: shorter than a sword or saber).



Ref: Tempering
Blades can, and are, actually tempered in molten lead by bladesmiths, although of course the lead is aloyed with tin to produce a lower point of melting, since the temperature of 350-400 centigrades could be undesirable, depending on the kind of steel. Anyway, this procedure is normalyy called "tempering in lead" and the word "alloy" is usually implied, as it is also when we refer to the steel with this single word, no matter if it is aloyed or not with other metals, and so I think the reference made by Rick is accurate. More normally, hardening-quenching is made by heathing the steel in a forge or oven and then cooling in water or oil at room temperature, though in a serial process the water or oil warms after several quenchings and they must be cooled. Latter, tempering is made heating usually up to the 250 centigrades AND ABOVE 260 centigrades. But what I meant, is that the red-heated steel could be also cooled in molten lead alloy (or in a salt bath) slightly above its point of melting calculated for this alloy in the 250 centigrades (though the alloy would be mostly tin), so the blade could be hardened and tempered in the same operation. It can work fine to get a flexible blade not too hard to be brittle. Heat treatments as quenchin-tempering are made at HIGHER temperatures (for example, in the range of the 250-300 centigrades and even SLIGHTLY above, lets say. during three hours, for a 5160 steel) to get bainite instead martensite (austempering) in other alloy with a bigger content of lead. This procedure has become popular among recognized anglosaxon bladesmiths not many years ago, although most of them use hot salt baths due several reasons, since it permits: to obtain enough good hardness, supressing at the same time the risk of broken or cracked blades produced sometimes during the usual quenching-hardening; to minimize or supress the scab produced normally on the surface of the blades quenched-hardened through the usual process (which is a tedious problem to clean by file and sand, even with power bandsanders); to produce a tough blade difficult to breake under stress; to get less deformations on the blades than those produced by the usual process of water-oil quenching-hardening, and to eliminate the need of a further tempering. This is why I wrote about wondering if the blades were "hardened" or "tempered" in the words quoted by Rick, since these words can carry different meanings in terms of temperature of the alloy and since the blades could be tempered after quenched, or in the same step it could be obtained both results by dipping in molten lead (alloy) from 240 to 300 centigrades, as the blade gets its martensite or bainite hardness, and also its temper. Temperatures below the 100 centigrades can also be recommended to quench some steel blades, but in this case warm oil is used and further tempering is made. I only wondered about the specific word without further complicated explanations, as I don´t have much time to connect to internet and my post was already long at that moment (this one I better made it in home to avoid at least many undesirable mistakes).

So, my comment to Rick was originated in my need to know which procedure used Collins, and IT WAS NOT A CORRECTION to him. I apologize to Rick by my unclear comment. This is also why latter in the week I wrote him privately a message, asking for more information, as it can not be excluded the possibility that Collins even worked to get bainite instead martensite, as I believe it is not a modern process, as some bladesmiths claim. And this is interesting for me because, as an amateur, I make long blades and also have interest in the history of the metallurgy related to the edged weapons, especially in the presence of so many unclear areas related to their chemical and physical properties and elaboration procedures.

Thank you for your attention
Regards

Gonzalo

[Rick]

Please, do not worry about me Gonzalo .

If I hadn't dropped that casual comment about the lead we might never have entered this fascinating technical discussion on tempering; thanks !

Rick

[Billman]

Gonzalo, thank you for your long and detailed response. It is always good to have different points of view, especially with reference to historical research. The use of the word machete in the 16th century, in the OED, does not give the context - the full OED would, but mine is the two volume abridged - so I can only give the first reference for the word, and of course it may relate to something other than what we today call a machete...

I know that in the UK molten lead was used to anneal the tangs of files that had been hardened to glass hard - this allowed the tang to be quickly heated without the heat transferring more than a 1/2" (say 15mm) beyond the shoulder of the file.

Most edge tools prior to about 1870 were made by forge welding carbon steel to a wrought iron or mild steel body. This process continued in many small forges well into the 20th century, and is still being carried on in the forge of Bernard Solon, the last traditional taillandier, working in Orléans, France. All-steel tools, usually stamped 'cast steel' or 'solid steel', were not widely available before the late 19th century, and after Bessemer and Siemnens Martins steels became widely available.

It was not until the early 20th century that alloy steels were used for edge tools... Hardening and temering of plain carbon steels involves quenching from red heat and then reheating to a much lower temperature to temper the blade... even with a soft steel or iron body, most makers still tempered the edge, even if only lightly, to remove brittleness. Tempering was often carried out in a bed of hot sand...

Modern steels may be capable of being hardened and tempered in one process, but most that contain over 1% of carbon still require some type of quenching to retain keep the cementite from reverting to pearlite if hardness, as required in a cutting edge, is needed.

I will need to research further into the use of lead or lead alloys for either hardening or tempering.. It may be that Collins were using the same technnique as file makers, and only annealing the tang area of the blade to further soften it to resist shock...

[Lee]

Camillus Cutlery (in village of same name in upstate New York) - now closed for a few years - used molten lead at a stage in their blade heat treatment process. I had the privilege of a tour courtesy of the consultant overseeing QA for the larger Cold Steel brand knives that were made there at the time and I recall seeing the pots in use and a brief discussion about safety concerns and measures taken with the material.

[Billman]

Information on lead for hardening and tempering at http://www.7now.com/tempering_steel.htm

I think part of the problem is the use of the term tempering - in the UK it is the name of the process used after hardening to reduce brittleness and increase toughness.

In the USA it appears to be used for the process of annealing, i.e. stress relieving or softenening of the steel to allow another process to be carried out, such as drawing or cold-working:

1. The method of producing steel wire (particularly suitable for the manufacture of coiled springs) comprising forming steel rod by hot rolling, oil tempering the rod as produced in the hot rolling operation, without drawing the rod, by passing it through an austenitizing step, an oil-quenching step, and a tempering step, cold-drawing the resultant oil-tempered rod into wire, and coiling the wire

link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4568394.html

In this process the steel is tempered at 600 to 1000 degrees F (approx 300 to 450 degrees C). I was always taught to harden wood chisels at straw colour (230C 450F), axes at brown/purple (270C 520F) and springs at blue (300C 570F) - that is the colour of the oxide film seen on cleaned steel.

Steel starts to turn red at 400C 750F - plain carbon steels are quenched to harden at about 700C 1300F.

I cannot see how molten lead, or even a lead tin alloy, can be used for tempering of hardened carbon steel - the temparature control is too critical...

In small forges, as used commercially in Europe up to the mid 20th century, and still in use elsewhere, hardening usually took place in oil - whale oil being preferred, but fish oil and other oils also used. Today used car or lorry engine oil is often substituted... If oil was not available a strong brine solution was used, and failing that water. Some forges preferred water, but most smiths thought it cooled too quickly and could lead to cracking on small pieces, and it also vapourised on large pieces, creating an insulating barrier of steam between the work and the water, thus delaying cooling....

Much hardening and tempering was seen as a 'magical' art, and most smiths kept their methods secret, often even from their own staff and apprentices...
In the UK, the Moss family from Hampshire, when they sold their trademarks, patterns and goodwill to Elwell, an industrial manufacturer from the Birmingham area, also sold their 'secret' of hardening and tempering.

In the USA, one smith gave up making tools, and handed over the business to his son after having to learn the hardening and tempering business for a third time after his supplier (and thus the qualities and properties) of the iron and steel he used had changed yet again.... Despite years of experience, he had had enough and was not prepared to invest the required time in experimenting on how to harden and temper the new steels (sorry cannot remember the link - it was on one of the better USA collectors or clubs sites).