Moro Budiak, battlefield damage?

kino · 17th April 2016, 06:24 PM

A recent acquisition, a Budiak.
Just wanted to share photos of it. Hope you enjoy.

Spunjer · 19th April 2016, 02:39 AM

Kino, that looks pretty cool, bro. the angle is kinda odd tho. notice how the lower half looks pretty straight? it appears that it was done on purpose, as in the budiak was probably used as a target practice

is it laminated?

drac2k · 19th April 2016, 03:40 AM

Very nice piece ;having seen many items such as swords, guns, etc. with bullet holes and bullets lodged in strange and amazing locations, I have no doubt, that this was done in the heat of battle.

CharlesS · 19th April 2016, 02:12 PM

I would not want to be the hand holding that lovely budiak, if, indeed, a bullet struck it in battle.

I really like the brass mounts on this one.

David · 19th April 2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Very nice piece ;having seen many items such as swords, guns, etc. with bullet holes and bullets lodged in strange and amazing locations, I have no doubt, that this was done in the heat of battle.

Drac, could you explain how you could possible tell the difference between bullet damage done in the heat of battle and damage done purposefully, say in target practice? How would one look different from the other?

drac2k · 19th April 2016, 04:38 PM

It would be impossible to definitively state that this was done in the heat of battle and of course no one could possibly tell how and why the spear was shot, however the probability that this was done in combat,I feel far outweighs the "target practice theory."
I based my theory on similar war damaged items that I have seen from the civil war to WW2 Japanese swords.The spear that was brought back was barrack bag cut, so obviously, the soldier who brought it back felt it was of some importance to him;I think, more so than showing that he was a good shot.Finally, in a land full of coconuts, who is going to shot a spear for target practice.
In conclusion, let me state that this is only a theory and it could have been done in target practice.................I just don't think so.

Battara · 19th April 2016, 05:24 PM

drac2k, I completely agree with you for the reasons you sited.

I thought about bidding on this one, but then I remembered I don't have any money right now....

That being said, I like the brass on this one too. Kino, if only you could find out what battle it got shot......

Thanks for posting this and congratulations!

kino · 19th April 2016, 05:41 PM

I can't tell if it's laminated or not. The hot water test revealed nothing.

The brass mounts and bands really adds to the spear.

It could have been set up for target practice, judging where it was struck almost at the middle and at near the widest section of the blade but adding to drac2k's theory, during target practice it's tempting to keep shooting until the target is destroyed whether the target be paper, metal man, fruit or household appliances.

David · 19th April 2016, 05:49 PM

Drac, the only reason i questioned you was because you stated that you had "no doubt". Obviously that was a bit of an exaggeration. Glad we could clear that up.

drac2k · 19th April 2016, 06:39 PM

Not a problem, as I myself tend to question everything; it drives my wife crazy!When one looks at how the fearless Moro warriors fought almost to the last man, such as in the first battle of Bud Dajo, where hundreds were killed in hand to hand combat, I still have "no doubt," as to how this spear was damaged!

Sajen · 19th April 2016, 08:11 PM

Agree with the others, very nice mounts! And a great piece of history and a good decision to keep it in this state.

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 19th April 2016, 08:23 PM

Can one estimate the caliber of the bullet and check whether it conforms to the ones in use at that time?
( I probably saw one episode of " NCIS Files" too many :-)))

David · 19th April 2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

... I still have "no doubt," as to how this spear was damaged!

Just for myself, i think it is my responsibility as a custodian of such pieces of history to always have doubt of such stories when no provenance is available to make such claims, especially in cases where the reason for the damage has the ability to affect the perceived value of the weapon in the collector's market. We love to attach all kinds of stories of the gory glory days of war to these Moro pieces and seem to attach more value to weapons we are sure drew the most amount of blood. Frankly i don't think it is anymore likely that this spear was damaged in battle than in target practice. It is indeed a question we can never answer with any assurance. The one thing i do have no doubt about is that the battle story will bring a higher price for this spear than the target practice story.

drac2k · 19th April 2016, 09:46 PM

Some possible rounds would be from a Krag rifle .30-40, M1903 Springfield rifle .30-03,M1895 Colt Browning machine gun .30-40, Spanish Mauser 1893 7mm(possible friendly fire),38 and 45 cal handgun fire, possible but doubtful(since the indentation was round), shrapnel from bombardment to mention a few.

ariel · 20th April 2016, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just for myself, i think it is my responsibility as a custodian of such pieces of history to always have doubt of such stories when no provenance is available to make such claims, especially in cases where the reason for the damage has the ability to affect the perceived value of the weapon in the collector's market. We love to attach all kinds of stories of the gory glory days of war to these Moro pieces and seem to attach more value to weapons we are sure drew the most amount of blood. Frankly i don't think it is anymore likely that this spear was damaged in battle than in target practice. It is indeed a question we can never answer with any assurance. The one thing i do have no doubt about is that the battle story will bring a higher price for this spear than the target practice story.

Agree. Buy the sword, not the story.

kino · 21st April 2016, 04:23 PM

This spear neither came with a story nor am I attaching one to it.

David · 21st April 2016, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

This spear neither came with a story nor am I attaching one to it.

I certainly wasn't suggesting you were Kino, simply responding to what seems like a general consensus of members who "want to believe".

ariel · 21st April 2016, 08:41 PM

Nothing personal on my end: this was just a remark summarizing David's general statement.

Battara · 22nd April 2016, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

This spear neither came with a story nor am I attaching one to it.

Oh sure Kino go ahead.............everyone else is doing it.

kino · 22nd April 2016, 03:39 PM

David and Ariel, Thanks. I just stated it for clarification.

Battara.....when the time comes, a story will surface.

Seriously, I asked the Auction House if they had history on the firearms and edged weapons, they told me that it just came out of an estate. But, I heard from a dealer that the items came out of a local museum that were liquidating their edged weapons and firearms collection because of the negativity surrounding it. It doesn't make sense.

Battara · 22nd April 2016, 04:46 PM

I guess Kino, like many of our pieces, the provenance and (original

) story will be lost to the sands of time................

Rick · 23rd April 2016, 01:16 AM

In cases like this barring provenance, damage such as this does not add to a piece's value, rather it reduces it IMO.

But.

I want to believe also.

17th April 2016, 06:24 PM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	Moro Budiak, battlefield damage? A recent acquisition, a Budiak. Just wanted to share photos of it. Hope you enjoy. Attached Images

19th April 2016, 05:41 PM	#8
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	I can't tell if it's laminated or not. The hot water test revealed nothing. The brass mounts and bands really adds to the spear. It could have been set up for target practice, judging where it was struck almost at the middle and at near the widest section of the blade but adding to drac2k's theory, during target practice it's tempting to keep shooting until the target is destroyed whether the target be paper, metal man, fruit or household appliances. Last edited by kino; 19th April 2016 at 07:21 PM.

19th April 2016, 02:39 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Kino, that looks pretty cool, bro. the angle is kinda odd tho. notice how the lower half looks pretty straight? it appears that it was done on purpose, as in the budiak was probably used as a target practice is it laminated?

19th April 2016, 03:40 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Very nice piece ;having seen many items such as swords, guns, etc. with bullet holes and bullets lodged in strange and amazing locations, I have no doubt, that this was done in the heat of battle.

19th April 2016, 02:12 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I would not want to be the hand holding that lovely budiak, if, indeed, a bullet struck it in battle. I really like the brass mounts on this one.

19th April 2016, 04:38 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	It would be impossible to definitively state that this was done in the heat of battle and of course no one could possibly tell how and why the spear was shot, however the probability that this was done in combat,I feel far outweighs the "target practice theory." I based my theory on similar war damaged items that I have seen from the civil war to WW2 Japanese swords.The spear that was brought back was barrack bag cut, so obviously, the soldier who brought it back felt it was of some importance to him;I think, more so than showing that he was a good shot.Finally, in a land full of coconuts, who is going to shot a spear for target practice. In conclusion, let me state that this is only a theory and it could have been done in target practice.................I just don't think so.

19th April 2016, 05:24 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	drac2k, I completely agree with you for the reasons you sited. I thought about bidding on this one, but then I remembered I don't have any money right now.... That being said, I like the brass on this one too. Kino, if only you could find out what battle it got shot...... Thanks for posting this and congratulations!

19th April 2016, 05:49 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Drac, the only reason i questioned you was because you stated that you had "no doubt". Obviously that was a bit of an exaggeration. Glad we could clear that up.

19th April 2016, 06:39 PM	#10
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Not a problem, as I myself tend to question everything; it drives my wife crazy!When one looks at how the fearless Moro warriors fought almost to the last man, such as in the first battle of Bud Dajo, where hundreds were killed in hand to hand combat, I still have "no doubt," as to how this spear was damaged!

19th April 2016, 08:11 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Agree with the others, very nice mounts! And a great piece of history and a good decision to keep it in this state. Regards, Detlef

19th April 2016, 08:23 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can one estimate the caliber of the bullet and check whether it conforms to the ones in use at that time? ( I probably saw one episode of " NCIS Files" too many :-)))

19th April 2016, 09:46 PM	#14
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Some possible rounds would be from a Krag rifle .30-40, M1903 Springfield rifle .30-03,M1895 Colt Browning machine gun .30-40, Spanish Mauser 1893 7mm(possible friendly fire),38 and 45 cal handgun fire, possible but doubtful(since the indentation was round), shrapnel from bombardment to mention a few.

21st April 2016, 04:23 PM	#16
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	This spear neither came with a story nor am I attaching one to it.

21st April 2016, 08:41 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nothing personal on my end: this was just a remark summarizing David's general statement.

22nd April 2016, 03:39 PM	#20
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	David and Ariel, Thanks. I just stated it for clarification. Battara.....when the time comes, a story will surface. Seriously, I asked the Auction House if they had history on the firearms and edged weapons, they told me that it just came out of an estate. But, I heard from a dealer that the items came out of a local museum that were liquidating their edged weapons and firearms collection because of the negativity surrounding it. It doesn't make sense.

22nd April 2016, 04:46 PM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I guess Kino, like many of our pieces, the provenance and (original ) story will be lost to the sands of time................

23rd April 2016, 01:16 AM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	In cases like this barring provenance, damage such as this does not add to a piece's value, rather it reduces it IMO. But. I want to believe also.