African Sabre, West Africa....Ivory Coast???

katana · 9th May 2006, 11:21 PM

Just purchased this sabre, the blade is 26 inch long seems to made of good steel, and has a broad fuller each side. The handle is leather cover. The sheath is made from canvas, fur and leather. Searching on the 'Anthropological Collections' website I found a sheath that is identical to a sword from the Ivory Coast.
I haven't received the sword yet, but I am wondering whether this sword has a European blade. I thought that generally speaking 'African Sabres' tend to be found in the North, or is that a gross simplification?
The seller suggested 18c

, but if he is right, could this be a relic of the slave trade era. (ah ..the romantic thoughts of a fool)

Comments gratefully received ( about the sword...not my sanity

)

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 05:31 PM

The blade looks European, maybe a cutlass blade? When you recieve it, is it heavy, how thick is the back? Is there some engraving or something on the blade by the hilt. If it is a cutlass blade I would bet somebody knows where it was made.

katana · 10th May 2006, 08:19 PM

Thanks Tim, I had started to think, it could be an old Naval cutlass. With the slave trade on the West Coast, the European Slave/Trade ships, and the recuitment of local tribes to capture 'fresh stock' or for cheap labour.. It does seem possible that a European blade could have been easily obtained and 'Africanised'. Obviously, if the blade could be dated, it could help to prove/disprove this theory. The scabbard apparently is canvas backed, possibly another connection to the sea/tall ships. Have you encountered similar styled scabbards from other regions? Or do you think the design is definitve to an area, region or Tribe?

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:58 PM

Canvas and other cloth is a very common material used to form the core of scabbards and handles across much of the southern Sahel. Presumably this is because of the high density of population in relation to the scarcity and how slowly wood grows in the area, or how easily it is consumed by insects, or perhaps it is just cheap and easily rolled and formed into various shapes. The tabouka like sabre I post pictures of some days back had a canvass core to the scabbard and handle.

katana · 10th May 2006, 09:19 PM

Thanks, again, Tim ,
I had originally thought the canvas was significant, however that seems to be incorrect.....never mind

.
If you've time would you mind looking at my other thread about a Shona axe, your input/ comments are always appreciated.

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2006, 02:48 AM

Hi Katana,
You are really busy! and acquiring some most interesting examples!

As Tim has very astutely observed, this very heavy blade does appear to be a naval cutlass blade. It would seem this blade most likely from a French naval cutlass, probably the M1792, though the blade is interestingly a bit more parabolically curved. It would not be surprising for suppliers to the French after the Egyptian campaigns to have been inclined to such feature.
See "Boarders Away" , William Gilkerson , R.I.1991 (p.78, fig's #20,21) for examples of this pattern, typically mounted with three branch guard.

Obviously, during the 19th century, the coasts of West Africa were heavily colonized by the French, and these naval blades found thier way into native armouries. The blades were of course remounted many times, well into the 19th century. The history of these regions, the tormenting and unfortunate tragedies of the slaving, and the rich culture later imbued into the Americas does indeed include romantic tales.......and it seems quite likely this blade in its more recent mounts most probably has some of its own!!!
Now, what was that about sanity?

All the best, from another romantic,
Jim

katana · 11th May 2006, 11:19 AM

Thanks Jim, after both yours and Tim's comments I am increasingly becoming impatient ....... I'm still waiting for the sword's arrival.
To me, it’s the individual history of a weapon that 'breathes life' into such inanimate objects.
Hopefully, I may find a makers mark or serial no. which may date the blade......

fearn · 11th May 2006, 05:00 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if the blade is from the 1800s, although it's in very good shape for a blade from the 18th century (1700s).

That said, I think that the fittings are in *amazingly* good shape for a 200-300 year old sword, especially one that has such common fittings, and that was supposedly in West Africa. Am I the only one who thinks it might have been remounted a few times?

F

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2006, 07:08 PM

An uncle of mine was in the Royal Navy in the 1950 and he says he had to learn cutlass drill, largely ceremonial. I see no reason why this blade is not late 19th or more likely early 20th century.

katana · 30th May 2006, 07:11 PM

Finally .....the sword has arrived. Nice solid feel, nice balance and relatively 'heavy'. Some deep pitting and nice patination on the blade. I can't find any markings at all.
Taken a number of measurements.... hoping that someone may be able to identify the European (?) blade. Thankyou

The spine (back) is 4mm thick, then at approx,18cms before the tip it thins to approx 1mm.
It has a broad fuller, both sides (18mm wide) and is 38cm long which follows the curve of the blade. Because the photos do not show this clearly I have applied tape to show position.
The blade is 48mm wide at handle, slightly tapering to 42mm approx. 15cms before point, then tapers again to 38mm just before point.
The blade measures 70.5cm, following the curve (of the blade), handle is 15cms long.

Tim Simmons · 30th May 2006, 08:10 PM

That is quite a blade. I think it must be European.

katana · 3rd June 2006, 07:12 PM

No argument from me, Tim.

Has anyone any ideas on the pattern (of the blade) A French M1792 pattern was suggested by Jim, however he felt that the curve (of this blade) was more acute than that.

Michael Blalock · 3rd June 2006, 08:56 PM

Something similar.

katana · 3rd June 2006, 11:55 PM

Thanks Micheal, I agree...very similar. Do you have any info on the sword you posted? Or origin of the blade?

Michael Blalock · 4th June 2006, 01:00 AM

It's a Manding sword I just picked up on Ebay. No markings on the blade. Definitely produced by and industrialized society. My guess would be early 1900's.

katana · 5th June 2006, 06:05 PM

Considering the conflict between the French and the Manding people in the 19c. France is looking most likely as the provider of the blade.

Lew · 5th June 2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Considering the conflict between the French and the Manding people in the 19c. France is looking most likely as the provider of the blade.

Hi Guys

I have two Manding swords and both have European /French blades. Here are both of them.

Lew

katana · 5th June 2006, 06:33 PM

Very nice examples Lew

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2006, 07:01 PM

French and then German 19th naval cutlasses from the National Maritime Museum and the Reme Museum. This does not mean yours is not French or German for that matter. It could be an older pattern or from some other country even suppled as trade?

katana · 18th June 2006, 01:07 AM

Sorry wrong thread... too many pages open at once

9th May 2006, 11:21 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	African Sabre, West Africa....Ivory Coast??? Just purchased this sabre, the blade is 26 inch long seems to made of good steel, and has a broad fuller each side. The handle is leather cover. The sheath is made from canvas, fur and leather. Searching on the 'Anthropological Collections' website I found a sheath that is identical to a sword from the Ivory Coast. I haven't received the sword yet, but I am wondering whether this sword has a European blade. I thought that generally speaking 'African Sabres' tend to be found in the North, or is that a gross simplification? The seller suggested 18c , but if he is right, could this be a relic of the slave trade era. (ah ..the romantic thoughts of a fool) Comments gratefully received ( about the sword...not my sanity ) Attached Images

30th May 2006, 07:11 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Finally .....the sword has arrived. Nice solid feel, nice balance and relatively 'heavy'. Some deep pitting and nice patination on the blade. I can't find any markings at all. Taken a number of measurements.... hoping that someone may be able to identify the European (?) blade. Thankyou The spine (back) is 4mm thick, then at approx,18cms before the tip it thins to approx 1mm. It has a broad fuller, both sides (18mm wide) and is 38cm long which follows the curve of the blade. Because the photos do not show this clearly I have applied tape to show position. The blade is 48mm wide at handle, slightly tapering to 42mm approx. 15cms before point, then tapers again to 38mm just before point. The blade measures 70.5cm, following the curve (of the blade), handle is 15cms long. Attached Images

3rd June 2006, 08:56 PM	#13
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Something similar. Attached Images

5th June 2006, 07:01 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	French and then German 19th naval cutlasses from the National Maritime Museum and the Reme Museum. This does not mean yours is not French or German for that matter. It could be an older pattern or from some other country even suppled as trade? Attached Images

10th May 2006, 05:31 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The blade looks European, maybe a cutlass blade? When you recieve it, is it heavy, how thick is the back? Is there some engraving or something on the blade by the hilt. If it is a cutlass blade I would bet somebody knows where it was made.

10th May 2006, 08:19 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Tim, I had started to think, it could be an old Naval cutlass. With the slave trade on the West Coast, the European Slave/Trade ships, and the recuitment of local tribes to capture 'fresh stock' or for cheap labour.. It does seem possible that a European blade could have been easily obtained and 'Africanised'. Obviously, if the blade could be dated, it could help to prove/disprove this theory. The scabbard apparently is canvas backed, possibly another connection to the sea/tall ships. Have you encountered similar styled scabbards from other regions? Or do you think the design is definitve to an area, region or Tribe?

10th May 2006, 08:58 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Canvas and other cloth is a very common material used to form the core of scabbards and handles across much of the southern Sahel. Presumably this is because of the high density of population in relation to the scarcity and how slowly wood grows in the area, or how easily it is consumed by insects, or perhaps it is just cheap and easily rolled and formed into various shapes. The tabouka like sabre I post pictures of some days back had a canvass core to the scabbard and handle.

10th May 2006, 09:19 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks, again, Tim , I had originally thought the canvas was significant, however that seems to be incorrect.....never mind . If you've time would you mind looking at my other thread about a Shona axe, your input/ comments are always appreciated.

11th May 2006, 02:48 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Hi Katana, You are really busy! and acquiring some most interesting examples! As Tim has very astutely observed, this very heavy blade does appear to be a naval cutlass blade. It would seem this blade most likely from a French naval cutlass, probably the M1792, though the blade is interestingly a bit more parabolically curved. It would not be surprising for suppliers to the French after the Egyptian campaigns to have been inclined to such feature. See "Boarders Away" , William Gilkerson , R.I.1991 (p.78, fig's #20,21) for examples of this pattern, typically mounted with three branch guard. Obviously, during the 19th century, the coasts of West Africa were heavily colonized by the French, and these naval blades found thier way into native armouries. The blades were of course remounted many times, well into the 19th century. The history of these regions, the tormenting and unfortunate tragedies of the slaving, and the rich culture later imbued into the Americas does indeed include romantic tales.......and it seems quite likely this blade in its more recent mounts most probably has some of its own!!! Now, what was that about sanity? All the best, from another romantic, Jim

11th May 2006, 11:19 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Jim, after both yours and Tim's comments I am increasingly becoming impatient ....... I'm still waiting for the sword's arrival. To me, it’s the individual history of a weapon that 'breathes life' into such inanimate objects. Hopefully, I may find a makers mark or serial no. which may date the blade......

11th May 2006, 05:00 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I wouldn't be surprised if the blade is from the 1800s, although it's in very good shape for a blade from the 18th century (1700s). That said, I think that the fittings are in amazingly good shape for a 200-300 year old sword, especially one that has such common fittings, and that was supposedly in West Africa. Am I the only one who thinks it might have been remounted a few times? F

11th May 2006, 07:08 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	An uncle of mine was in the Royal Navy in the 1950 and he says he had to learn cutlass drill, largely ceremonial. I see no reason why this blade is not late 19th or more likely early 20th century.

30th May 2006, 08:10 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is quite a blade. I think it must be European.

3rd June 2006, 07:12 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	No argument from me, Tim. Has anyone any ideas on the pattern (of the blade) A French M1792 pattern was suggested by Jim, however he felt that the curve (of this blade) was more acute than that.

3rd June 2006, 11:55 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Micheal, I agree...very similar. Do you have any info on the sword you posted? Or origin of the blade?

4th June 2006, 01:00 AM	#15
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	It's a Manding sword I just picked up on Ebay. No markings on the blade. Definitely produced by and industrialized society. My guess would be early 1900's.

5th June 2006, 06:05 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Considering the conflict between the French and the Manding people in the 19c. France is looking most likely as the provider of the blade.

5th June 2006, 06:33 PM	#18
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Very nice examples Lew

18th June 2006, 01:07 AM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sorry wrong thread... too many pages open at once