Aceh Sikin for coments

[fernando]

Using the search button i have learnt that this type of grip ( Hulu) is called Rumpung ( hope i'm right).
Entering RhysMichael's excelent work i figured out this sword style would be a Peudeueng Panjang. Somewhere i've read Panjang means large?
What i didn't yet find out is whether this specific style, namely the grip, is typical of a determined subethnic group ( Aceh , Gayo, Alas, etc.), or is generical to all.

However my main question goes for the way the grip fits to the bolster. Despite the quality of this piece being of a certain level, i don't find a reasonable explanation for the fact that the grip ( throat? ) diameter is clearly narrower than the bolster, not to mention the sort of crude gap at the junction. Also surprising is the lack of decoration "scales" on the horn material in that area. I first thaught that all this "irregularity" meant that some sort of decoration ring or crown has being there before and, for imaginable reasons, was later "harvested" from the handle.
However i have lately seen quite a few pictures of these swords and i don't find that the ones of this type, those with inlay on the blade, have additional fittings on the grip.
It could be that what i have here is a handle replacement, but i don't realy think this is the issue.
Could it be, however that, these handles are typicaly (un) finished this way ?
I know that some members in the Forum have great knowledge of these swords and have already handled several examples.
Could i please have some input on this subject ?
Obviously also general coments will be welcome.
Much obliged.
Fernando
PS
I have made a sketch on the handle extra picture, to support my poor english text .

[Dajak]

If there was an crown or ring on it you see it on the hilt .

If you take an look at the swapforum an rentjong is sold missing part off the crown as you can see it is carved in the hilt and different color where the missing piece was .

I never see an crown on an inlayed blade like this and like to see an picture of it if it exist .

The litlle darker color below the hilt is from rust .

Name off hilt hulu rumpung page 125

Ben

ps don t you have zonnevelds Book (an must for the weapon collector)

[asomotif]

Dear Fernando,

I also get the impression that a piece of gold ? has been harvested once

For comparrison 2 Sikins with gold inlay.
The first I still have, the second I sold last year much too cheap.

[kronckew]

here is a photo of a number of sikin (and a rencong) with additional metal fittings, looks like yours may have a bit missing after all. i note some of the hulu on the source pages other sikin do taper a bit abruptly towards the bolster as if fitted badly.



The source link

my modern plain one for comparison

[asomotif]

This picture is the old stock (or collection ) from Ben.

Therefore his claim that inlay and collar are/were not combined.

[Dajak]

You right Willem I like to see the ones that have the inlay like the first one
and have an golden crown like the rentjong .

It looks like they not exist .


Ben

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

A smooth area near the base of the hilt (close to the blade) might be original in finished condition: At least the typical hilt of pedeueng pasangan does come with such a smooth area (it's grip is thicker though and the widening area between bolster and grip is usually smooth - thus, it may not be comparable). I don't recall a pedeueng panjang grip with such a smooth area - would need to screen my sources...

Also, horn hilts in low humidity are prone to shrinking and you often see a gap between hilt and blade.

However, in your example there is a kind of iron spacer between the bolster with inlay and the horn hilt. It looks pretty unfinished to me - at least, I wouldn't expect such a thing to be originally exposed to view in such a status weapon! OTOH, it looks like a perfect attachment for a crown IMVHO - I'd guess this may have looked like in the 2 left examples on the pic from Ben's collection (i. e. not being of the spiky version). To me, this also seems to be supported by the horn hilt having a much smaller diameter than the bolster -something I wouldn't expect to see in quality workmanship either!

Actually, I have a rencong with inlaid bolster which once had a crown of the spiky variant: This is clearly shown by the marks visible at the base of the horn hilt (as Ben already mentioned). I'll try to post a pic soon.

Regards,
Kai

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Dear Fernando,

I also get the impression that a piece of gold ? has been harvested once

For comparrison 2 Sikins with gold inlay.
The first I still have, the second I sold last year much too cheap.

Willem you should sure have keep the second one because the first one looks like they replace the Handle


Ben

[fernando]

Thank you all for your input, Gentlemen.
In view of what has been said (and unsaid) and also due to lack of sustainable evidence, i think i better give this dilemma the benefit of the doubt. Indeed the grip/bolster junction, in this example, is not the ideal match, but it seems as this is not a valid self speaker, for what matters. Although the thickness gap between the two parts is somehow outstanding, this appears not to be an uncommon irregularity, judging by other examples one can see out there.
Also i have yet not seen a sikim of this style (blade inlay) with grip (crown) ornaments.
Attached is the picture of one of similar kind, that i found at Oriental Arms arquives, in comparison with my example.

Fernando

[Battara]

What is the difference in status or significance between the gold inlay type and the "crown" type of ferrule?

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

Although the thickness gap between the two parts is somehow outstanding, this appears not to be an uncommon irregularity, judging by other examples one can see out there.
Also i have yet not seen a sikim of this style (blade inlay) with grip (crown) ornaments.
Attached is the picture of one of similar kind, that i found at Oriental Arms arquives, in comparison with my example.

Actually, I think that this piece from Artzi might be another example of an inlaid blade with (missing) golden crown: If one looks closely, there seems to be the "shadow" of a spiny crown visible where the hatching of the grip starts. It doesn't show the typical deep marks/impressions of the spikes (those Ben and me are referring to) though. However, even if this example doesn't help to prove the case, I believe it should be enough of an indication to keep an open mind on decorations of Aceh blades...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Jose,

What is the difference in status or significance between the gold inlay type and the "crown" type of ferrule?

Ben asked the very same question a good while back but we never got enough evidence for a decent answer...

Obviously, the use of (low grade) gold will indicate a higher status than suassa (gold diluted even further). AFAIK, there are no indications that the use of gold (rather than suassa) was similarly frowned upon by Aceh people(s) as among the Moro. I'd guess that the spiky crown rather than the more rounded variant also shows higher status; the same may go for 3 crowns rather than 2. That's just a mere gut feeling though...

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Interesting thoughts on this variation of Sikin.
Here is mine, also acquired from Oriental Arms.
As you can see there is a bone ring as a spacer between the crown and the horn handle.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1067

Michael

[asomotif]

Things are not getting much clearer for me

The example of Arti'z archive really gives me the idea that inlay and crowns have been combined on that piece.

As for the piece from Michael with the bone piece.
This is to me feels like a later restauration.

Ps. In the invincible Keris 2 there is mentioned that Suasa was higher appreciated than gold. Seems a bit unlikely to me. any ideas on that ?

[Battara]

Pure gold (or gold mixture 10k or more) were frowned upon by the Prophet as being weak (making men weak). Swassa is 9k and below, about a 1/3 and less gold content and thus not considered gold as such.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Battara

What is the difference in status or significance between the gold inlay type and the "crown" type of ferrule?

Originally Posted by Kai

Hello Jose,
Ben asked the very same question a good while back but we never got enough evidence for a decent answer...

Hi Kai,
If i recall, what Ben asked was the importance of the crowns in handles, not the difference in status between blades with gold inlay and the the crowns.
Crowns may be added at a later stage, while blade inlay is there from the beginning, right ?

Fernando

[asomotif]

Crowns may be added at a later stage, while blade inlay is there from the beginning, right ?

Dear Fernando,

I think that technically both can be done after a weapon is finished.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Dear Fernando,

I think that technically both can be done after a weapon is finished.

Hi Willem,
I don't mean technically, but chronologically. Like, if you already have a noble status you will buy a sword with blade inlay; but if you achieve some status at a later stage, you add a crown to your sword handle.
Just my fantasy
Fernando

[Dajak]

Don't look like an fantasy to me Fernando


Ben

[asomotif]

Thinking that way, one could also get a plain Sikin and have it inlaid after getting higher status.
And maybe later add some status by adding a crown ?

But I assume most status was already received by birth.
Maybe Ben can confirm this.

Ps. Ben, you brought your Lap top on holidays ???

Best regards,
Willem

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

If i recall, what Ben asked was the importance of the crowns in handles, not the difference in status between blades with gold inlay and the the crowns.

Yes, you're right. However, both touch on the issue of status (and the societies we're talking about were highly stratified) and we still don't have enough firsthand accounts to answer any of these questions with any certainty. When looking at the craftmanship of a larger amount of examples I believe the approximate status is fairly intuitive though - just have a look at the peudeueng from Ben's collection!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1995

Crowns may be added at a later stage, while blade inlay is there from the beginning, right ?

Both could be added later. I would guess that most of these swords were pusaka and/or gifts from the sultan signifying a person's function (i. e. as a judge).

Regards,
Kai

[Dajak]

Hi Willem internet cafe everywhere here in Sanur Bali

An High rank officer is not only by birth

you can get there by good things you do like killing as much Dutch soldiers

Inlay is most from the start you can see the difference if it is put later on



Ben

[asomotif]

Hi Ben,

good things you do like killing as much Dutch soldiers

The Indonesian sun is getting to your head already

PS. also getting back on Battara's comment :

Pure gold (or gold mixture 10k or more) were frowned upon by the Prophet as being weak (making men weak). Swassa is 9k and below, about a 1/3 and less gold content and thus not considered gold as such.

Interesting theory.
But Sikin's with crowns are often very elaborate. With 2 or layers of crowns and enamel inlay.
While Sikin's with Suasa are often just showing a simple ring of suasa with some very simple lines. combined with a brass ferule. in crwon shape.

I am afraid even the noblest of the noble are attracted by gold.

[Dajak]

Hi Willem you right about the gold

Gold always more than suwasa

And yes I did get sunbrand on my head

Ben

[Battara]

Well.....I never said that gold was not used. Even Moro stuff occasionally has gold on it, as in 10k or above. I have a Moro kris with this on it. It was an answer for the tendency away from gold for some.

[fernando]

I have just got the Zonneveld book.
He is very definite at mentioning sikins with blades that have gold-wire incrustations which, in this case, are called sikin panjang meutatah.
So this variant his well established in sikin typology.
Further he quotes that the part of the blade where (or when ?) these inlays are done is called sampa.
... i am learning
Fernando

[Dajak]

Hi Fernando


I did mentioned before in this forum if you are interested in getting stuff get some books and good information Books are sometimes very important .

Nice that you found out off the sikim inlay the name

I can't remember that anyone has say it on the forum .


Ben

[kai]

Here's my rencong with gold inlay, once present crown (triple spikes representing a bamboo shoot), and also the whole hilt tip once covered with gold (as shown by a piece of gold still attached to the damar).

Seems to me that this combination of gold decorations is a genuine Aceh variation. I, for one, like it...

This rencong has seen hard times; I'll post pics when its state of preservation allows to show more details.

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Interesting piece to have both - shame it is missing the crown...

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Battara

What is the difference in status or significance between the gold inlay type and the "crown" type of ferrule?

Just bringing this thread up again in light of some info I found in van Zonneveld (p.125) that answers part of my question. It is regarding the inlay that he says are auspicious signs (if I understand him right). Although this is in the context of sikim panjang, I think it can apply to other Aceh pieces.

I guess this leaves the crowns for court or status wear as discussed in another thread.