Destructive Sword Test.... Machine Gun vs. Katana

BSMStar · 14th August 2006, 06:45 PM

This is a must see!

Watch to the conclusion... count how many 30 cal. round does it take to cut their way through a well made Katana.

Do not do this at home! I cry for the sword in the end... but it is amazing the punishment it takes before giving up the ghost (seven rounds).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBIBfzL8ULw

Thank you LabanTayo for guiding me to this link!!!!

katana · 14th August 2006, 07:17 PM

There is also this one......9mm against a Katana (the sword.......NOT ME

)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM&NR

BSMStar · 14th August 2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

There is also this one......9mm against a Katana (the sword.......NOT ME

)

Thanks Katana!!! Those "baca" Japanese...

I am not about to take my favorite sword and start punching rounds at it.... Interesting test for those who are not faint of heart.

katana · 14th August 2006, 08:32 PM

Its surprising how much punishment the katana's took. And as for a 9mm bullet being sliced in half ......seeing is believing.
I did a quick check on the velocity of an average 9 mm bullet...

The 9mm (which is offered in a much wider range of bullet weights and styles) is specced at 1150 fps and 340 ft-lbs energy with a 115-grain JHP bullet and 990 fps and 320 ft-lbs energy with heavier 147-grain JHP subsonic loads.

fps (feet per second)..... and I believe that ft-lbs converts into the weight in lbs spread on a square foot area.....340 ft-lbs ....that is some force

The Double D · 14th August 2006, 08:52 PM

Back in the days when I taught firearms to new police recruits all of use instructors would split bullets and break balloons. We used an axe blade and an old mauser bayonet. My particular favorite was turn the gun upside down and fire the gun with my little finger. The drill was to teach that all that was required to hit the target was proper sight alignment.

We fired 9mm ball, 38 Spl WC and JHP, 357 Magnum JHP and 45 ACP ball.

The axe and bayonet blade had been used for years before I arrived and was still there being used after I left a year or two later. No damage to the blades.

We did not however fire a 30 cal machine gun at the blades.

katana · 14th August 2006, 09:38 PM

Hi DD......guns are not my forte....never even fired live rounds...

Anyway....back to the thread.....Is there any data on the effective cutting abilities / strength of various sword designs, and or blades formed by differing forging techniques / type of steel (carbon content) used ?
It would be very interesting to see direct comparisions between the various ethnographic swords that originate from around the world.......

BSMStar · 14th August 2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

We did not however fire a 30 cal machine gun at the blades.

Take a look at the difference in kinetics between a 9mm and a 30 cal... and I can not help but feel that due to the spin from rifling, that it greatly added to the punch (and fatigue) on the blade (when examining how the blade failed, spinning on its anterior axis).

sabertasche · 15th August 2006, 12:45 AM

Guys, I find the content of these video somewhat obscene. A real shame to destroy good swords. I looked at the sword vrs MG and I think that was a .50 cal heavy machine gun!

The funny video is the two gommers selling crappy samurai swords ala "The Shopping Channel". 3 smacks on the flat of the blade and it breaks, impailing the seller. Very funny - I hope he's ok and learned a lesson.

Greg

The Double D · 15th August 2006, 03:30 AM

Actually, my first thought was the same as Greg, that's a 50 BMG M2.

To me it was a stupid test. Some 50 BMG rounds have a tungsten steel penetrator insert.

Was it a good sword? Take another look at the video, the sword delaminated

ariel · 15th August 2006, 01:58 PM

The next step: how long will Mona Llisa stand against a flamethrower?
There is no limit to stupidity......

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 02:02 PM

I stand corrected...

It is a M2 50 cal... making it more amazing (since the 50 was designed in WW2 to penetrate armor). Freaking amazing to stand up to 7 rounds of 50.

The rounds appear to be tipped.

Jeff Pringle · 15th August 2006, 03:36 PM

The standard 50BMG round has a hardened steel core that's about 2" long, wrapped in lead and copper, you run across them occasionally in the Mojave desert. The steel isn't hardened to the same level as a sword, but it's still an intimidating projectile

Lew · 15th August 2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The next step: how long will Mona Llisa stand against a flamethrower?
There is no limit to stupidity......

Ariel

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

Lew

Valjhun · 15th August 2006, 05:09 PM

Is that goemons' sword?

Crazy, the world is going down, the ancestors of thoose swordsmiths are turning in their graves... I totaly agree with SenSei, stupidity to the limit. The fact that the sword was born for such a test only confirms and escalates the stupidity of thoose people... There are at least a 1000 tests wich can confirm the quality of a sword. Not so glamourous as that test but also not so rednecked. Why? Unless you are a dragon ninja, you'll never have to parry gunshots with a katana

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

You have every right to call me stupid or crazy...

Just think of the PR the Smith will get from this demo... it will be more than worth the price of the blade. As difficult as the test is to accept (even for me), its no different that taking a brand new "Beamer" and crashing it into a concrete wall at 60 MPH... to show what punishment the car will take and let you "walk" away. Great advertisement... I want one.

Lew · 15th August 2006, 07:17 PM

Gentleman

This type of test is partly done for hype and partly done for knowlege. I am sure that ancient bladesmiths on occassion experimented with new or different steel combinations and heat treatments to see if they could come up with a better sword. Also destroying a blade now and then gives one a chance to see how their quality control is doing. So it is not stupidity in anyway to do this type of testing granted it is on the extreme side of experimentation. Some blades with kisu or flaws are often destroyed maybe this was one of them? I recall a story of a famous Japanese sword maker who created a very beautiful katana for his lord but when the blade was tested it failed to cut well. The sword maker spent an entire year or more refining his technique and told his lord that his next sword would surpass all the cutting tests or he would commit sepuku. Well the sword maker finally kept his word and produced the most wonderful sword for his lord that would pass all of the cutting tests put to it. I am quite sure that the sword maker went through a few test swords before he finally came up with the winner his life depended on it.

Lew

Valjhun · 15th August 2006, 07:28 PM

I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

I do not think that anyone can disagree with you, it is a very odd benchmark for sword making. But it is an impressive benchmark.

I do not think that this one test alone would be enough to prove a sword's worth.

But passing all other tests, what a sword!!!!!!!

The Double D · 15th August 2006, 09:11 PM

Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

katana · 15th August 2006, 09:51 PM

I agree that the testing of blades is important....how else can you prove that the blades you produce have quality or the forging techniques you employ are the 'best'. Historically speaking...many blades were tested.....to find out, in the heat of battle, that your blade was say,...badly tempered and shatters, would be a test...too late

Using an 50 calibre machine gun.... is a little extreme ....but visually it is a spectacle......a case of old weapon technology versus new.... no problem there......unless the katana is historically significant.....then thats a different matter

BSMStar · 15th August 2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

I think it is fair to say, with the techniques used in making this type of blade, the stress of being struck by this type of round... seven times in quick succession (with heat production and stress)... yes, really good swords can delaminate like this.

Splitting a 50 cal...

ariel · 16th August 2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ariel

The blade was made specifically for this test by the sword maker why is it stupid? The maker did this to prove a point that properly made blades can hold up to great amounts of punishment. It is not like they took a Masamune out of the museum and shot at it.

Lew

I missed the point. If it is a new sword and if it was made specifically as a "crush dummy", then... go ahead! Make my day!

BSMStar · 16th August 2006, 02:07 PM

How did they make such a crash dummy?

Jeff, you may be interested in this.

Making of Katana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc&NR

katana · 18th August 2006, 11:14 PM

Found this ....thought it may be relavent...

As Odin says in the Hovamal:

"Praise no day 'til evening;

no wife 'til on her pyre;

no sword 'til tested;

no maid 'til bedded;

no ice 'til crossed;

no ale 'til drunk."

Ah, and I'm following his advice.......but still trying to find an ale I shouldn't praise

Rivkin · 19th August 2006, 12:00 AM

I think 9mm civilian is by far incapable of penetrating steel targets. Would the results be different if instead of a sword one would use a steel prybar ? I don't know, but I would think that any properly prepared steel bar would do even better than a sword due to its geometry - I doubt if 30 cal rifle with ordinary bullets can penetrate more than 5mm of steel, 20(?)mm if one is using AP.
This reminds of the story a few years ago when a big "sensei" in an american nihonto community seriously damaged reporduction of a XVIth century helmet using a reproduction katana. It was covered as an example of immense quality of japanese style weapons and immense talents of the "sensei". Shortly after it the whole bunch of different "reenactment" people started to squash helmet using axes, warhammers, swords, maheiras, god knows what else. Some failed miserably, some completely wacked their test subjects.

I think the same effect is here - people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

BSMStar · 21st August 2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

- people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

Keep in mind for the 50 cal...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG

"The M2 would, however, go on to function as an anti-armour machine gun, and decades later, be used in high-powered rifles..... During World War II it found its usage in penetrating lightly armoured vehicles, including aircraft."

I agree that a 9mm ain't that impressive. One shot at that. But seven rounds of 50....

That's just crazy. I would not want to try stopping just one round of 50 with today's body armor.... wouldn't that be suicide?

Rivkin · 22nd August 2006, 01:37 AM

aircrafts were usually made from wood, dural or other similarly non bulletproof materials. light armored vehicles (APC) usually have 5mm or so of armour. Sword is like 25mm wide - it is a completely different class, more like a tank.

BSMStar · 22nd August 2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

aircrafts were usually made from wood, dural or other similarly non bulletproof materials. light armored vehicles (APC) usually have 5mm or so of armour. Sword is like 25mm wide - it is a completely different class, more like a tank.

The quote from the link, talks about the development of the 50 cal from Browning (around WWI) to WWII where it was used for anti-aircraft (due to its reach) and anti-armor (due to its penetration). Of course as new weapons are introduced, new armor is developed. If I recall, the Britt’s started using their 88s against developing German armor since nothing else seemed to penetrate it. Today, you tend to "melt" your way through the "new" armor, and so it goes... back to the armor chalk board.

Cutting seven of these 50s in half with a sword, what can I say... I am easy to impress (it made a nice tank).

But the real question... since not all "tanks" are equal, (and are you suggesting this is true) do all swords have the same "strength" to stand up and split 7 rounds of 50?

Rivkin · 23rd August 2006, 04:30 PM

When WWII started light armored vehicles had 5mm, tanks 25mm; in the end tanks had as much as 100mm front armor. I was probably too vile in my responce, but there are many things one might consider in evaluating this test, first being the type of ammunition used. Plain bullets, tracers, incendiaries are made from very soft materials. Then there is armour piercing, which is typically made from hard (60-65) steel, sabot or advanced armour piercers where one can find smaller "penetrators", made from tungsen or other exotic materials. I am no specialist in the area, far from that, but standard bullets are really not supposed to be shot at steel targets.

BSMStar · 24th August 2006, 02:47 PM

Rivkin,

I didn't take it as being vile.

I agree, there are too many unknowns in this video (at least for me since I do not understand Japanese) to be scientific. If you look up above (19 entries), there is a poor picture of the cartridges as they are being fed in (from the video)… they appear to be the silver tipped armor piercing type.

Obviously, I am not an expert, just a student like most of us here on the forum.

Here is some interesting info on the 50...

http://www.democrats.reform.house.go...3637-24584.pdf

14th August 2006, 06:45 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Destructive Sword Test.... Machine Gun vs. Katana This is a must see! Watch to the conclusion... count how many 30 cal. round does it take to cut their way through a well made Katana. Do not do this at home! I cry for the sword in the end... but it is amazing the punishment it takes before giving up the ghost (seven rounds). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBIBfzL8ULw Thank you LabanTayo for guiding me to this link!!!! Last edited by BSMStar; 14th August 2006 at 07:02 PM.

15th August 2006, 02:02 PM	#11
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I stand corrected... It is a M2 50 cal... making it more amazing (since the 50 was designed in WW2 to penetrate armor). Freaking amazing to stand up to 7 rounds of 50. The rounds appear to be tipped. Attached Images

15th August 2006, 05:09 PM	#14
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Is that goemons' sword? Crazy, the world is going down, the ancestors of thoose swordsmiths are turning in their graves... I totaly agree with SenSei, stupidity to the limit. The fact that the sword was born for such a test only confirms and escalates the stupidity of thoose people... There are at least a 1000 tests wich can confirm the quality of a sword. Not so glamourous as that test but also not so rednecked. Why? Unless you are a dragon ninja, you'll never have to parry gunshots with a katana Last edited by Valjhun; 15th August 2006 at 05:28 PM.

14th August 2006, 07:17 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	There is also this one......9mm against a Katana (the sword.......NOT ME ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM&NR

14th August 2006, 08:32 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Its surprising how much punishment the katana's took. And as for a 9mm bullet being sliced in half ......seeing is believing. I did a quick check on the velocity of an average 9 mm bullet... The 9mm (which is offered in a much wider range of bullet weights and styles) is specced at 1150 fps and 340 ft-lbs energy with a 115-grain JHP bullet and 990 fps and 320 ft-lbs energy with heavier 147-grain JHP subsonic loads. fps (feet per second)..... and I believe that ft-lbs converts into the weight in lbs spread on a square foot area.....340 ft-lbs ....that is some force

14th August 2006, 08:52 PM	#5
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Back in the days when I taught firearms to new police recruits all of use instructors would split bullets and break balloons. We used an axe blade and an old mauser bayonet. My particular favorite was turn the gun upside down and fire the gun with my little finger. The drill was to teach that all that was required to hit the target was proper sight alignment. We fired 9mm ball, 38 Spl WC and JHP, 357 Magnum JHP and 45 ACP ball. The axe and bayonet blade had been used for years before I arrived and was still there being used after I left a year or two later. No damage to the blades. We did not however fire a 30 cal machine gun at the blades.

14th August 2006, 09:38 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi DD......guns are not my forte....never even fired live rounds... Anyway....back to the thread.....Is there any data on the effective cutting abilities / strength of various sword designs, and or blades formed by differing forging techniques / type of steel (carbon content) used ? It would be very interesting to see direct comparisions between the various ethnographic swords that originate from around the world.......

15th August 2006, 12:45 AM	#8
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Guys, I find the content of these video somewhat obscene. A real shame to destroy good swords. I looked at the sword vrs MG and I think that was a .50 cal heavy machine gun! The funny video is the two gommers selling crappy samurai swords ala "The Shopping Channel". 3 smacks on the flat of the blade and it breaks, impailing the seller. Very funny - I hope he's ok and learned a lesson. Greg

15th August 2006, 03:30 AM	#9
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Actually, my first thought was the same as Greg, that's a 50 BMG M2. To me it was a stupid test. Some 50 BMG rounds have a tungsten steel penetrator insert. Was it a good sword? Take another look at the video, the sword delaminated

15th August 2006, 01:58 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The next step: how long will Mona Llisa stand against a flamethrower? There is no limit to stupidity......

15th August 2006, 03:36 PM	#12
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The standard 50BMG round has a hardened steel core that's about 2" long, wrapped in lead and copper, you run across them occasionally in the Mojave desert. The steel isn't hardened to the same level as a sword, but it's still an intimidating projectile

15th August 2006, 07:17 PM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gentleman This type of test is partly done for hype and partly done for knowlege. I am sure that ancient bladesmiths on occassion experimented with new or different steel combinations and heat treatments to see if they could come up with a better sword. Also destroying a blade now and then gives one a chance to see how their quality control is doing. So it is not stupidity in anyway to do this type of testing granted it is on the extreme side of experimentation. Some blades with kisu or flaws are often destroyed maybe this was one of them? I recall a story of a famous Japanese sword maker who created a very beautiful katana for his lord but when the blade was tested it failed to cut well. The sword maker spent an entire year or more refining his technique and told his lord that his next sword would surpass all the cutting tests or he would commit sepuku. Well the sword maker finally kept his word and produced the most wonderful sword for his lord that would pass all of the cutting tests put to it. I am quite sure that the sword maker went through a few test swords before he finally came up with the winner his life depended on it. Lew

15th August 2006, 07:28 PM	#17
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I agree... From the marketing specter is that a brilliant strategy for a decadent, mass market. That test has nothing to do with sword usage and a real connoseiur should know that

15th August 2006, 09:11 PM	#19
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Do really good swords delaminate like that one did?

15th August 2006, 09:51 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I agree that the testing of blades is important....how else can you prove that the blades you produce have quality or the forging techniques you employ are the 'best'. Historically speaking...many blades were tested.....to find out, in the heat of battle, that your blade was say,...badly tempered and shatters, would be a test...too late Using an 50 calibre machine gun.... is a little extreme ....but visually it is a spectacle......a case of old weapon technology versus new.... no problem there......unless the katana is historically significant.....then thats a different matter

16th August 2006, 02:07 PM	#23
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	How did they make such a crash dummy? Jeff, you may be interested in this. Making of Katana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc&NR

18th August 2006, 11:14 PM	#24
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Found this ....thought it may be relavent... As Odin says in the Hovamal: "Praise no day 'til evening; no wife 'til on her pyre; no sword 'til tested; no maid 'til bedded; no ice 'til crossed; no ale 'til drunk." Ah, and I'm following his advice.......but still trying to find an ale I shouldn't praise

19th August 2006, 12:00 AM	#25
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think 9mm civilian is by far incapable of penetrating steel targets. Would the results be different if instead of a sword one would use a steel prybar ? I don't know, but I would think that any properly prepared steel bar would do even better than a sword due to its geometry - I doubt if 30 cal rifle with ordinary bullets can penetrate more than 5mm of steel, 20(?)mm if one is using AP. This reminds of the story a few years ago when a big "sensei" in an american nihonto community seriously damaged reporduction of a XVIth century helmet using a reproduction katana. It was covered as an example of immense quality of japanese style weapons and immense talents of the "sensei". Shortly after it the whole bunch of different "reenactment" people started to squash helmet using axes, warhammers, swords, maheiras, god knows what else. Some failed miserably, some completely wacked their test subjects. I think the same effect is here - people do not act surprised that bullets are stopped by a synthetic fiber similar to that used in pantyhoses, but we don't see very foten what happens when bullet meets sword.

22nd August 2006, 01:37 AM	#27
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	aircrafts were usually made from wood, dural or other similarly non bulletproof materials. light armored vehicles (APC) usually have 5mm or so of armour. Sword is like 25mm wide - it is a completely different class, more like a tank.

23rd August 2006, 04:30 PM	#29
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	When WWII started light armored vehicles had 5mm, tanks 25mm; in the end tanks had as much as 100mm front armor. I was probably too vile in my responce, but there are many things one might consider in evaluating this test, first being the type of ammunition used. Plain bullets, tracers, incendiaries are made from very soft materials. Then there is armour piercing, which is typically made from hard (60-65) steel, sabot or advanced armour piercers where one can find smaller "penetrators", made from tungsen or other exotic materials. I am no specialist in the area, far from that, but standard bullets are really not supposed to be shot at steel targets.

24th August 2006, 02:47 PM	#30
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rivkin, I didn't take it as being vile. I agree, there are too many unknowns in this video (at least for me since I do not understand Japanese) to be scientific. If you look up above (19 entries), there is a poor picture of the cartridges as they are being fed in (from the video)… they appear to be the silver tipped armor piercing type. Obviously, I am not an expert, just a student like most of us here on the forum. Here is some interesting info on the 50... http://www.democrats.reform.house.go...3637-24584.pdf