Help with ID on a Solingen 'Tree' mark

Radboud · 21st September 2022, 05:52 AM

Does anyone recognise this distinctive 'tree with roots' stamp from a Solingen-made blade on a mortuary sword?

The blade is marked:
ME FECIT Running wolf Tree SAHAGVM
SOLINGEN SAHAGVM

From what I can tell ME FECIT SOLINGEN is Latin for "Made in Solingen" and SAHAGVM is a forgery of the signature for the 16th Century sword maker Alonso de Sahagun

It appears that the SAHAGVM (also SAHAGUM or SHAGVOM) name is for Walloon swords, what the Andrea Ferarra name is for Scottish Baskethilts. A search on the name turns up many Walloon swords but only a few English ones.

With its central trunk and exposed roots, I had hoped such a clear mark would be fairly easy to identify; alas, I can't find it in the reference works I have. Has anyone encountered it before?

These photos are from the vendor; the sword is currently on its way to me, so will be able to take more when I have it in hand.

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2022, 08:56 PM

Well, this is really a puzzler!
Going through all the standard references; Wallace Coll., Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Gardner, Kinman there is no record of a 'tree' like this........only in Kinman (p.110) BUT that is a Heinrich Boeker (Boker) of Solingen from 1829 onward...obviously having nothing to do with this sword.

I thought perhaps the Boecker might have earlier family who might have earlier beginnings in Solingen , but so far nothing there either.

I will say that the entire configuration of markings on this blade seem contrary to the usual patterns of Solingen markings. The 'running wolf' is typically upside down in accord with other markings on the blade (as with the Me Fecit and Sahagum). The wolf is not normally with a punzone, usually it is only flanked with numbers or letters in a phrase etc.
It is unusual to the the SAHAGUM doubled .

However, that is not to say there is anything suspect, but that this blade seems to have been marked by someone outside the normal workers who would carry out these blade inscriptions etc.

As this 'mortuary' is from the period in England when swords were produced in Hounslow, then in Oxford as well, possibly German 'type' markings were added to a blade. In these times Benjamin Stone if I recall, used a marking of grapes or a grape vine. Perhaps further research on this line might give a possible answer. and maybe this is a grape vine? The only conflict would be , Stone petitioned the Cutlers company complaining of the spurious use of Spanish or other marks on English blades in 1638....so is this outside that potential?

urbanspaceman · 21st September 2022, 11:03 PM

I love this sword... I wish I owned it.
The collection of markings also adds a lot to its qualities.

Radboud · 21st September 2022, 11:11 PM

Thank you for the feedback Jim. It is as you say an unusual configuration, especially the orientation of the wolf and that pannel in between the fullers.

I saw Boeker's mark in Kinman but discounted the connection as his tree is split into two trunks and doesn't show the roots. That the blade is English made is another possibility that just muddies the water. But we can't discount the possibility that all the markings are spurious, after all, if it's good enough for the smiths from Solingen, then why not the smiths from England?

werecow · 22nd September 2022, 12:54 AM

Lovely sword. One of these is very high on the wish list. On Walloon swords the SAHAGVM is also combined with a Wolf of Passau but of course there's only a single fuller.

Can't be much help with the tree, though... Is there such a thing as a visual search engine for makers marks?

Radboud · 22nd September 2022, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Is there such a thing as a visual search engine for makers marks?

I've tried using Google image search, but it doesn't return a lot of results. My guess is that there just aren't enough people posting them.

werecow · 22nd September 2022, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

I've tried using Google image search, but it doesn't return a lot of results. My guess is that there just aren't enough people posting them.

Yeah, I tried that as well without luck. But a dedicated database of blade marks with a specialized image matching algorithm might yield better results. Maybe one day I'll find some time to invest in making something like that (although I'd need a database of maker's marks, which is presumably non-trivial to acquire).

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2022, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

Thank you for the feedback Jim. It is as you say an unusual configuration, especially the orientation of the wolf and that pannel in between the fullers.

I saw Boeker's mark in Kinman but discounted the connection as his tree is split into two trunks and doesn't show the roots. That the blade is English made is another possibility that just muddies the water. But we can't discount the possibility that all the markings are spurious, after all, if it's good enough for the smiths from Solingen, then why not the smiths from England?

This is certainly an anomaly, and the character of the blade fullers resembles in. degree those of many of the mortuary type swords assembled in these periods during the English civil wars.

There can be no doubt the markings are spurious, in the same way they were applied in Solingen, most of the Hounslow blades were indeed German.
There are references suggesting that even blades from Solingen were marked as 'from Hounslow'. The lettering and configuration of the SAHAGUM as I note are atypical for that application as used in Solingen. It seems that in most cases these 'Sahagum' marked blades typically went into North Europe which is why they are well known on 'walloons'.

There are of course certain Hounslow smiths who did place their names on blades; Kinndt, Hoppie and Hopkins but this was not a consistent case, many of the blades simply had the running wolf.
I have a 'mortuary' with typical ANDREA FERARA blade which is certainly Hounslow c. 1650 as identified in Bezdek (p.281). Attached....pretty rough, and dont have clear pic of Andrea Ferara blade
.
According to Bezdek the Germans were producing blades for Benjamin Stone after 1631, the year he was awarded the drapes mark by Cutlers Co.
The mark had previously been owned by William Bals who died 1630.
As I say, I do not have image of this mark, and the idea of grape plant or vine is just a suggestion. It would seem that English cutlers were using punzones or marks which do not appear in the usual compendiums. If anyone has Levines Book of Knives (1985?) it seems there are some markings in there.
Whatever the case, I think this is possibly a Hounslow product c. 1630s-40s.
despite the unusual and irregularly executed lettering etc.

Radboud · 12th October 2022, 10:27 PM

The sword arrived yesterday, so can put up some more photos. My first impression is that it's a lot lighter than I expected, at 860 grams. The blade is 830mm long, but has lost a bit off the point.

It's also quite thin: (Profile / Distal taper)

Ricasso: 35.3mm / 5.6mm
200mm: 30.5mm / 4.1mm
400mm: 26.1mm / 3.4mm
600mm: 23.8mm / 2.5mm
800mm: 15.3mm / 1.4mm

Although this profile is similar to the backsword blade on my 1796 HC dress sword:

Ricasso: 32.0mm / 6.1mm
200mm: 28.9mm / 4.5mm
400mm: 27.7mm / 3.2mm
600mm: 25.2mm / 2.7mm
800mm: 16.5mm / 1.3mm

I'm guessing that the grip wire was redone at some point, possibly in the 1800s? Although the Turkshead knot looks good so it might be older but that seems unlikely.

All in all an interesting piece, even with the peculiar 'panel' on the blade. Will need to keep an eye open for similar blade profiles to compare.

werecow · 12th October 2022, 11:45 PM

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

Radboud · 13th October 2022, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

It's another head, just the face is a bit worn. These faces are a prominent feature of these hilts and where the name 'Mortuary' sword comes from. Late Victorian collectors theorised that the face was the martyred King Charles II.

But as swords with these decorations were carried by both sides of the English Civil War, and there exist examples that can be dated to before the death of Charles II, this is an unlikely explanation. Possibly another one of those mysteries that can only be resolved with a time machine

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2022, 11:32 AM

It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme.
As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war.
I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind.
BTW, it is a magnificent sword.

kronckew · 13th October 2022, 09:18 PM

Another found online:

Radboud · 13th October 2022, 09:32 PM

Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew.

Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

toaster5sqn · 13th October 2022, 11:13 PM

I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth.
Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher".

Robert

Triarii · 16th October 2022, 02:58 PM

Any chance of a clearer photo of the blade panel? Ignore, just seen the photos. A search engine took me straight into the later photos.

I'm cleaning a sort of AVB Norman Type 91 hilt (with raised detail in a similar style to yours) with the blade stamped HEINRICH KOLL and the Passau wolf of Solingen and there is an armourers mark partially hidden under the shell guard which I thought may be the base of a stylised tree. Photos when I've finished the clean up.

21st September 2022, 05:52 AM	#1
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Help with ID on a Solingen 'Tree' mark Does anyone recognise this distinctive 'tree with roots' stamp from a Solingen-made blade on a mortuary sword? The blade is marked: ME FECIT Running wolf Tree SAHAGVM SOLINGEN SAHAGVM From what I can tell ME FECIT SOLINGEN is Latin for "Made in Solingen" and SAHAGVM is a forgery of the signature for the 16th Century sword maker Alonso de Sahagun It appears that the SAHAGVM (also SAHAGUM or SHAGVOM) name is for Walloon swords, what the Andrea Ferarra name is for Scottish Baskethilts. A search on the name turns up many Walloon swords but only a few English ones. With its central trunk and exposed roots, I had hoped such a clear mark would be fairly easy to identify; alas, I can't find it in the reference works I have. Has anyone encountered it before? These photos are from the vendor; the sword is currently on its way to me, so will be able to take more when I have it in hand. Attached Images

21st September 2022, 11:03 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 546	Envy I love this sword... I wish I owned it. The collection of markings also adds a lot to its qualities.

12th October 2022, 10:27 PM	#9
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	The sword arrived yesterday, so can put up some more photos. My first impression is that it's a lot lighter than I expected, at 860 grams. The blade is 830mm long, but has lost a bit off the point. It's also quite thin: (Profile / Distal taper) Ricasso: 35.3mm / 5.6mm 200mm: 30.5mm / 4.1mm 400mm: 26.1mm / 3.4mm 600mm: 23.8mm / 2.5mm 800mm: 15.3mm / 1.4mm Although this profile is similar to the backsword blade on my 1796 HC dress sword: Ricasso: 32.0mm / 6.1mm 200mm: 28.9mm / 4.5mm 400mm: 27.7mm / 3.2mm 600mm: 25.2mm / 2.7mm 800mm: 16.5mm / 1.3mm I'm guessing that the grip wire was redone at some point, possibly in the 1800s? Although the Turkshead knot looks good so it might be older but that seems unlikely. All in all an interesting piece, even with the peculiar 'panel' on the blade. Will need to keep an eye open for similar blade profiles to compare. Attached Images

13th October 2022, 11:32 AM	#12
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 546	Face in the flowers It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme. As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war. I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind. BTW, it is a magnificent sword. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 13th October 2022 at 11:35 AM. Reason: correction

13th October 2022, 09:18 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	Another found online: Attached Images

21st September 2022, 08:56 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Well, this is really a puzzler! Going through all the standard references; Wallace Coll., Lenciewicz, Gyngell, Gardner, Kinman there is no record of a 'tree' like this........only in Kinman (p.110) BUT that is a Heinrich Boeker (Boker) of Solingen from 1829 onward...obviously having nothing to do with this sword. I thought perhaps the Boecker might have earlier family who might have earlier beginnings in Solingen , but so far nothing there either. I will say that the entire configuration of markings on this blade seem contrary to the usual patterns of Solingen markings. The 'running wolf' is typically upside down in accord with other markings on the blade (as with the Me Fecit and Sahagum). The wolf is not normally with a punzone, usually it is only flanked with numbers or letters in a phrase etc. It is unusual to the the SAHAGUM doubled . However, that is not to say there is anything suspect, but that this blade seems to have been marked by someone outside the normal workers who would carry out these blade inscriptions etc. As this 'mortuary' is from the period in England when swords were produced in Hounslow, then in Oxford as well, possibly German 'type' markings were added to a blade. In these times Benjamin Stone if I recall, used a marking of grapes or a grape vine. Perhaps further research on this line might give a possible answer. and maybe this is a grape vine? The only conflict would be , Stone petitioned the Cutlers company complaining of the spurious use of Spanish or other marks on English blades in 1638....so is this outside that potential?

21st September 2022, 11:11 PM	#4
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Thank you for the feedback Jim. It is as you say an unusual configuration, especially the orientation of the wolf and that pannel in between the fullers. I saw Boeker's mark in Kinman but discounted the connection as his tree is split into two trunks and doesn't show the roots. That the blade is English made is another possibility that just muddies the water. But we can't discount the possibility that all the markings are spurious, after all, if it's good enough for the smiths from Solingen, then why not the smiths from England?

22nd September 2022, 12:54 AM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 500	Lovely sword. One of these is very high on the wish list. On Walloon swords the SAHAGVM is also combined with a Wolf of Passau but of course there's only a single fuller. Can't be much help with the tree, though... Is there such a thing as a visual search engine for makers marks?

12th October 2022, 11:45 PM	#10
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 500	* Drool * The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

13th October 2022, 09:32 PM	#14
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew. Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

13th October 2022, 11:13 PM	#15
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72	I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth. Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher". Robert

16th October 2022, 02:58 PM	#16
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	Any chance of a clearer photo of the blade panel? Ignore, just seen the photos. A search engine took me straight into the later photos. I'm cleaning a sort of AVB Norman Type 91 hilt (with raised detail in a similar style to yours) with the blade stamped HEINRICH KOLL and the Passau wolf of Solingen and there is an armourers mark partially hidden under the shell guard which I thought may be the base of a stylised tree. Photos when I've finished the clean up.