Muslem knife for ID please

Ian · 23rd January 2024, 05:14 AM

This knife is owned by a friend who asked that I post it here for ID. It was a present from his wife for his 60th birthday.

The knife and sheath are all metal and quite weighty. OAL in sheath is 18.75 inches, blade 11.5 inches, hilt 5.5 inches, OAL out of sheath 17.0 inches.

Decorations on the hilt and sheath look Persian to me. The sheath has a brass terminus, and two sets of three grooves running lengthwise on each side. A floral pattern covers the intervening panels and continues to the hilt, which has similar grooves and floral decoration. The end of the pommel has a fine wire grid pattern.

It has an attractive "bird's eye" pattern-welded blade with a yellow metal inlay on the obverse side.

It looks a classy, recently modern piece and the only blemishes are the crudely cut grooves on the sheath and hilt.

My thoughts are that it is Persian or Syrian in manufacture, and from the second half of the 20th C. However, I'm no expert on Islamic arms and my friend wants a "more informed" opinion. Your thoughts are very welcome.

.

Ian · 23rd January 2024, 05:21 AM

Some higher contrast pictures of the blade to show the pattern welding.

.

serdar · 23rd January 2024, 05:24 AM

Hello, i would say that it is newly made indian trying to mimic ottoman knife and wootz.
I seen that kind of pecock eye modern damask, allso koftgari uses too bid scrspes, and steel is like painted.
Probably modern indian one made in last fev years or max last 10-20 years.
There is lots of them on ebay.
Cheers.

Turkoman.khan · 23rd January 2024, 06:09 AM

I see a modern item that would date back to the late 20th century...

Gavin Nugent · 23rd January 2024, 09:08 AM

Modern Rajasthan, one of about 20 variations they make.
I don't think there has been a month go by where I don't get emails from manufactures looking to peddle their modern wares...

Ian · 23rd January 2024, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serdar

... and steel is like painted.

Thank you serdar for your helpful comments. I am familiar with many of the northern Indian knives you refer to, with similar bird's eye forge-welded patterns in the blades. However, I don't understand how the decoration on the hilt and scabbard were done. It does not appear to be koftgari or inlay work. When I run my finger over it, the pattern feels slightly raised. The designs are in various colors and you mention that "the steel is like painted." Can you explain that please. I don't understand how you paint polished metal. Some of the strokes present on this piece are so fine that they could be done only with a single hair. I know Mughal miniaturists painted portraits using a single haired brush for fine detail, but those were expert craftsmen in the employ of rich people.

Gavin, thank you also for the reference to recent work from Rajahstan. I'm familiar with those blade forms. Some of those pattern welded blades are indeed very similar. However, I return to the hilt and scabbard and ask whether you can refer me to similar recent examples from northern India, and also explain how this effect is achieved in multiple colors and fine detail. I'm happy to provide additional pictures of the initial example on this thread if that will help.

I'm asking for my own interest and information for my friend also.

Interested Party · 23rd January 2024, 02:30 PM

Is it a pool and eye pattern welded blade, yes. Is it koftgari or painted I don't know. I blew up one of Ian's pictures and I could easily see the cross hatching scratched into the metal to hold the wire or whatever else is used to create these patterns. Once I saw it in that picture, I saw it in all of them. I would imagine that pool and eye is not new and that there are antique examples from all over the world. I don't have my books handy that I can bring up pictures to cite this point. The cartouche on the blade looks recent to my eye, once again with the hashing very visible and the application is wide and uniform, not a pre shaped wire to create more subtle lines. The blade does seem very flat, lacking medial ridges or defined grind lines, a little flat for a lenticular cross section.

Modern, maybe. The question I never hear asked is "Is this knife pretty?" I think it is. To me it looks like whoever made it had some talent and took some pride in their work. I think we do not give the Rajasthan workers enough credit. I wonder about the style of ornamentation. Is it a generic flower or a stylized version of a certain species? The style of the pattern seems from the northern Indian subcontinent, but I wonder more and more about how these patterns became folk art and where the various influences came to be. I would love to dig deeper into the history of these styles and motifs as they stretch from Asia into Europe and Africa and reverberate back again. I have definitely gotten worse presents from friends who felt bad for me because I had to buy old and damaged blades.

Well, enough musing for one morning. Time to go to work. I'm sorry I didn't have something more useful to add to the conversation.

Richard G · 23rd January 2024, 04:24 PM

The hilt and scabbard could be niello.
If you're lucky the hilt could be bidriware, I'm not so sure about the scabbard because most bidri I've seen has been on a relatively plain surface.
Best wishes
Richard

Ian · 24th January 2024, 03:18 AM

IP and Richard G,

Thank you both for taking up my request for technical information. Thank you also, IP, for noting that this knife and scabbard are indeed pleasing to the eye. My friend's wife thought it looked lovely and deserving of a gift to her husband. They are not wealthy people and this was a generous gift, taking into account their family budget, for a notable birthday. In the blow-up of the hilt that IP provided, there does indeed appear to be fine cross hatching for delicate koftgari work. I shall try to provide better pictures to show this more clearly.

IP, I agree that we sometimes overlook the technical expertise of today's Rajahstani craftsmen too quickly. Of the many examples presently coming from this State, there are certainly some well made items showing good technical skills. There is a tendency to dismiss modern decorative items as unworthy of consideration by serious collectors. In doing so, we overlook the ongoing traditional expertise present in Indian and other cultures. Collectors of Indonesian keris still recognize the mastery of techniques used by recent empus.

Ian · 24th January 2024, 04:04 AM

A better example of the cross-hatching on the scabbard. Personally, I would rate the koftgari work on the hilt and scabbard as higher in quality than the small area on the blade. None of it is truly outstanding, but it is skilled work and that on the hilt and scabbard seems above average. The cross-hatching for the base of the koftgari on the hilt and scabbard is not visible to the naked eye.

.

Gavin Nugent · 24th January 2024, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Gavin, thank you also for the reference to recent work from Rajahstan. I'm familiar with those blade forms. Some of those pattern welded blades are indeed very similar. However, I return to the hilt and scabbard and ask whether you can refer me to similar recent examples from northern India, and also explain how this effect is achieved in multiple colors and fine detail. I'm happy to provide additional pictures of the initial example on this thread if that will help.

I'm asking for my own interest and information for my friend also.

Here is a link Ian, knock yourself out searching through the thousands of listings.
https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail/a...615217633.html
Just click the search function and you should get about 15 different edge weapons types, work them them all at your leisure...
If you are lucky, you might even see this Bhutan beauty I sold some years ago, that currently resides in a US private collection...
https://dir.indiamart.com/search.mp?...dsrc=1&res=RC2

Interested Party · 24th January 2024, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

If you are lucky, you might even see this Bhutan beauty I sold some years ago, that currently resides in a US private collection...

Wow!!! that is an amazing collection of stuff. I am always blow away by what moves around the world. It was like a giant online flee market.

Is the Bhutan blade advertised a copy or fraud?

Gavin Nugent · 24th January 2024, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Wow!!! that is an amazing collection of stuff. I am always blow away by what moves around the world. It was like a giant online flee market.

Is the Bhutan blade advertised a copy or fraud?

It is a fraudulent advert. It resides in a private US collection.

23rd January 2024, 05:14 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Muslem knife for ID please This knife is owned by a friend who asked that I post it here for ID. It was a present from his wife for his 60th birthday. The knife and sheath are all metal and quite weighty. OAL in sheath is 18.75 inches, blade 11.5 inches, hilt 5.5 inches, OAL out of sheath 17.0 inches. Decorations on the hilt and sheath look Persian to me. The sheath has a brass terminus, and two sets of three grooves running lengthwise on each side. A floral pattern covers the intervening panels and continues to the hilt, which has similar grooves and floral decoration. The end of the pommel has a fine wire grid pattern. It has an attractive "bird's eye" pattern-welded blade with a yellow metal inlay on the obverse side. It looks a classy, recently modern piece and the only blemishes are the crudely cut grooves on the sheath and hilt. My thoughts are that it is Persian or Syrian in manufacture, and from the second half of the 20th C. However, I'm no expert on Islamic arms and my friend wants a "more informed" opinion. Your thoughts are very welcome. . Attached Images

23rd January 2024, 05:21 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Some higher contrast pictures of the blade to show the pattern welding. . Attached Images

23rd January 2024, 02:30 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 478	Is it a pool and eye pattern welded blade, yes. Is it koftgari or painted I don't know. I blew up one of Ian's pictures and I could easily see the cross hatching scratched into the metal to hold the wire or whatever else is used to create these patterns. Once I saw it in that picture, I saw it in all of them. I would imagine that pool and eye is not new and that there are antique examples from all over the world. I don't have my books handy that I can bring up pictures to cite this point. The cartouche on the blade looks recent to my eye, once again with the hashing very visible and the application is wide and uniform, not a pre shaped wire to create more subtle lines. The blade does seem very flat, lacking medial ridges or defined grind lines, a little flat for a lenticular cross section. Modern, maybe. The question I never hear asked is "Is this knife pretty?" I think it is. To me it looks like whoever made it had some talent and took some pride in their work. I think we do not give the Rajasthan workers enough credit. I wonder about the style of ornamentation. Is it a generic flower or a stylized version of a certain species? The style of the pattern seems from the northern Indian subcontinent, but I wonder more and more about how these patterns became folk art and where the various influences came to be. I would love to dig deeper into the history of these styles and motifs as they stretch from Asia into Europe and Africa and reverberate back again. I have definitely gotten worse presents from friends who felt bad for me because I had to buy old and damaged blades. Well, enough musing for one morning. Time to go to work. I'm sorry I didn't have something more useful to add to the conversation. Attached Images Last edited by Interested Party; 23rd January 2024 at 02:41 PM.

24th January 2024, 04:04 AM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	A better example of the cross-hatching on the scabbard. Personally, I would rate the koftgari work on the hilt and scabbard as higher in quality than the small area on the blade. None of it is truly outstanding, but it is skilled work and that on the hilt and scabbard seems above average. The cross-hatching for the base of the koftgari on the hilt and scabbard is not visible to the naked eye. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 24th January 2024 at 05:46 AM.

23rd January 2024, 05:24 AM	#3
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 56	Hello, i would say that it is newly made indian trying to mimic ottoman knife and wootz. I seen that kind of pecock eye modern damask, allso koftgari uses too bid scrspes, and steel is like painted. Probably modern indian one made in last fev years or max last 10-20 years. There is lots of them on ebay. Cheers.

23rd January 2024, 06:09 AM	#4
Turkoman.khan Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 106	I see a modern item that would date back to the late 20th century...

23rd January 2024, 09:08 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Modern Rajasthan, one of about 20 variations they make. I don't think there has been a month go by where I don't get emails from manufactures looking to peddle their modern wares...

23rd January 2024, 04:24 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	The hilt and scabbard could be niello. If you're lucky the hilt could be bidriware, I'm not so sure about the scabbard because most bidri I've seen has been on a relatively plain surface. Best wishes Richard

24th January 2024, 03:18 AM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	IP and Richard G, Thank you both for taking up my request for technical information. Thank you also, IP, for noting that this knife and scabbard are indeed pleasing to the eye. My friend's wife thought it looked lovely and deserving of a gift to her husband. They are not wealthy people and this was a generous gift, taking into account their family budget, for a notable birthday. In the blow-up of the hilt that IP provided, there does indeed appear to be fine cross hatching for delicate koftgari work. I shall try to provide better pictures to show this more clearly. IP, I agree that we sometimes overlook the technical expertise of today's Rajahstani craftsmen too quickly. Of the many examples presently coming from this State, there are certainly some well made items showing good technical skills. There is a tendency to dismiss modern decorative items as unworthy of consideration by serious collectors. In doing so, we overlook the ongoing traditional expertise present in Indian and other cultures. Collectors of Indonesian keris still recognize the mastery of techniques used by recent empus.