Keris Measurement

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2006, 09:31 PM

I believe that most of us would have heard of at least one method of keris measurement.

The primary reason for keris measurement seems to have been to provide an indication of the suitability or otherwise of a particular keris for either a particular owner, or in general.

I would like to ask anybody who knows of any method of keris measurement to tell us of the method they know.

Thanks.

Rick · 20th December 2006, 10:43 PM

There are only two methods that I know of; One IIRC uses a length of grass or leaf and if the keris fits the sum of the lengths used to measure it then it is a good keris.
The other is done by measuring using the distance between a part of the thumb (Knuckle to tip?) and repeating a mantra with every thumb length measured.
How the results are determined I don't know but I would speculate that a good keris has an odd numbered sum of each form of measurement.

kai · 21st December 2006, 12:28 AM

I haven't come across any measuring system firsthand but will quote some from the literature as soon as time permits...

David · 21st December 2006, 01:32 AM

There are a number of different methods listed in the MBRAS compilation The Keris and other Malay Weapons. I look them up when i get a chance.

drdavid · 28th January 2007, 05:20 AM

Hi Alan
I recently read Skeat's "Malay Magic". Close to the end of the book he has a section entitled 'War and Weapons'. In this he quotes "A translation of Malayan MS on Krises and Process of Damasking" from Newbold's "British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca:- Here is the translation

"Measure the kris with a string below its aring (a jutting out of the blade near its bottom) to its point; cut the string and fold it trebly; cut off one of the trebles and with the remaining two measure up the blade of the kris, then make a mark how far the string reaches. Measure the blade across at this mark, and find how many times its breadth is contained in the two-thirds length; cut the string into as many pieces. These form the sloca, or measure, of which the kris consists. If none of the string remains over the blade is perfect, if a minute portion remain, it is less perfect, but if half the breadth remain or more, it is chelaka, unlucky."

I have not chased up the Newbold book to find out when it was published but Malay Magic was originally published in 1900 so this description of a Malay measurement method is over 100 years old. The text does not quite make sense to me although I think we can understand what is being said. Also you have to wonder whether in this description the measurement of length is along the edge or the centre of the blade. I am going to measure a couple and see if it is possible to convert a blade from perfect to unlucky and visa versa depending on this factor.

cheers
DrDavid

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2007, 06:09 AM

Thanks David.This method is fairly well known and fairly wide spread, and appears in a number of different versions. The measurement is done along the centre of the blade.

Martin Kerner took one version of this method and created an interesting theory around it. Some of this theory does not stand close examination, but other parts of it are, I believe, touching on one of the great unknowns of keris symbolism. Regretably, I don't think Martin realised this.Using the method as a base, he used mathematics to express the form of a keris and analysed his results statistically.Martin's work has been much undervalued by many people, and this is simply because they do not understand the ground breaking work he did. Some of his interpretations were a little difficult to accept, principally because of his lack of practical and cultural knowledge, but the analytical work he did I consider to be brilliant.I believe that in time Martin Kerner will be honoured as a man who showed us where the door was, even though he himself could not open it.

Several years ago I measured over two hundred keris using the variation of this method that occurs in Bali and is reported in "Keris Bali".This was the same version that Martin Kerner drew upon. The results were fairly consistent, but the remarkable thing was that very good quality, old , Javanese and Balinese keris produced a remarkably consistent result.

When I asked this question I was rather hoping that perhaps somebody may have stumbled across some obscure method of measurement that was not well known, but that could be correlated to the existing well known ones.

drdavid · 28th January 2007, 06:31 AM

Thank you for your comments Alan, could you explain with the Balinese method do you simply measure directly up the centre of the blade including the gonjo. I was/am a bit confused by the reference to the aring in Skeat's description as in my ignorance I thought this was a term for the outermost tail section of the gonjo and hence could not see how you measured up the centre of the blade with this as the starting point.
cheers
David

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2007, 08:39 PM

This is an English translation from an old Balinese lontar, written in Kawi. It was translated into modern Balinese, Indonesian, French and English. The English says the same as the Indonesian, I cannot read Balinese without a dictionary, and I cannot read Kawi at all.

"Take a rope or young coconut leaf, and take the length of the keris, starting from its ganja until its point, then cut the rope/leaf. It will have the same length as the keris.
Fold the rope /leaf into two. Now its length is half the length of the keris. Find the middle part of the keris by measuring the half length rope/ leaf onto the keris,starting from the wesi (place of the handle of the keris)
After getting the middle part of the keris, unfold the rope/leaf and use it to measure the width of the middle part of the keris, then fold up the rope/leaf following the width of the middle part of the keris ( the length of keris is divided by the width of its middle part)so that we will get some pleats.---"

After this it goes into the usual sort of lucky/unlucky thing.

In the above you can read "wesi" as "pesi", so what you are doing is measuring the length of the blade without gonjo, using a center line.

Maybe Mr. Skeat didn't know the difference between a gonjo and an aring?

In fact, I have to think about aring myself. I never use the Malay terms and when somebody says "aring" I have to stop and think what they mean.

19th December 2006, 09:31 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Keris Measurement I believe that most of us would have heard of at least one method of keris measurement. The primary reason for keris measurement seems to have been to provide an indication of the suitability or otherwise of a particular keris for either a particular owner, or in general. I would like to ask anybody who knows of any method of keris measurement to tell us of the method they know. Thanks.

20th December 2006, 10:43 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	There are only two methods that I know of; One IIRC uses a length of grass or leaf and if the keris fits the sum of the lengths used to measure it then it is a good keris. The other is done by measuring using the distance between a part of the thumb (Knuckle to tip?) and repeating a mantra with every thumb length measured. How the results are determined I don't know but I would speculate that a good keris has an odd numbered sum of each form of measurement.

21st December 2006, 12:28 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I haven't come across any measuring system firsthand but will quote some from the literature as soon as time permits...

21st December 2006, 01:32 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	There are a number of different methods listed in the MBRAS compilation The Keris and other Malay Weapons. I look them up when i get a chance.

28th January 2007, 05:20 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Alan I recently read Skeat's "Malay Magic". Close to the end of the book he has a section entitled 'War and Weapons'. In this he quotes "A translation of Malayan MS on Krises and Process of Damasking" from Newbold's "British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca:- Here is the translation "Measure the kris with a string below its aring (a jutting out of the blade near its bottom) to its point; cut the string and fold it trebly; cut off one of the trebles and with the remaining two measure up the blade of the kris, then make a mark how far the string reaches. Measure the blade across at this mark, and find how many times its breadth is contained in the two-thirds length; cut the string into as many pieces. These form the sloca, or measure, of which the kris consists. If none of the string remains over the blade is perfect, if a minute portion remain, it is less perfect, but if half the breadth remain or more, it is chelaka, unlucky." I have not chased up the Newbold book to find out when it was published but Malay Magic was originally published in 1900 so this description of a Malay measurement method is over 100 years old. The text does not quite make sense to me although I think we can understand what is being said. Also you have to wonder whether in this description the measurement of length is along the edge or the centre of the blade. I am going to measure a couple and see if it is possible to convert a blade from perfect to unlucky and visa versa depending on this factor. cheers DrDavid

28th January 2007, 06:09 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Thanks David.This method is fairly well known and fairly wide spread, and appears in a number of different versions. The measurement is done along the centre of the blade. Martin Kerner took one version of this method and created an interesting theory around it. Some of this theory does not stand close examination, but other parts of it are, I believe, touching on one of the great unknowns of keris symbolism. Regretably, I don't think Martin realised this.Using the method as a base, he used mathematics to express the form of a keris and analysed his results statistically.Martin's work has been much undervalued by many people, and this is simply because they do not understand the ground breaking work he did. Some of his interpretations were a little difficult to accept, principally because of his lack of practical and cultural knowledge, but the analytical work he did I consider to be brilliant.I believe that in time Martin Kerner will be honoured as a man who showed us where the door was, even though he himself could not open it. Several years ago I measured over two hundred keris using the variation of this method that occurs in Bali and is reported in "Keris Bali".This was the same version that Martin Kerner drew upon. The results were fairly consistent, but the remarkable thing was that very good quality, old , Javanese and Balinese keris produced a remarkably consistent result. When I asked this question I was rather hoping that perhaps somebody may have stumbled across some obscure method of measurement that was not well known, but that could be correlated to the existing well known ones.

28th January 2007, 06:31 AM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Thank you for your comments Alan, could you explain with the Balinese method do you simply measure directly up the centre of the blade including the gonjo. I was/am a bit confused by the reference to the aring in Skeat's description as in my ignorance I thought this was a term for the outermost tail section of the gonjo and hence could not see how you measured up the centre of the blade with this as the starting point. cheers David

28th January 2007, 08:39 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	This is an English translation from an old Balinese lontar, written in Kawi. It was translated into modern Balinese, Indonesian, French and English. The English says the same as the Indonesian, I cannot read Balinese without a dictionary, and I cannot read Kawi at all. "Take a rope or young coconut leaf, and take the length of the keris, starting from its ganja until its point, then cut the rope/leaf. It will have the same length as the keris. Fold the rope /leaf into two. Now its length is half the length of the keris. Find the middle part of the keris by measuring the half length rope/ leaf onto the keris,starting from the wesi (place of the handle of the keris) After getting the middle part of the keris, unfold the rope/leaf and use it to measure the width of the middle part of the keris, then fold up the rope/leaf following the width of the middle part of the keris ( the length of keris is divided by the width of its middle part)so that we will get some pleats.---" After this it goes into the usual sort of lucky/unlucky thing. In the above you can read "wesi" as "pesi", so what you are doing is measuring the length of the blade without gonjo, using a center line. Maybe Mr. Skeat didn't know the difference between a gonjo and an aring? In fact, I have to think about aring myself. I never use the Malay terms and when somebody says "aring" I have to stop and think what they mean.