Suhl Wheellock carbin

Matchlock · 23rd December 2014, 11:43 AM

Military wheellock saddle pistols from the 1640's to ca. 1650, the later period of the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).
Note the Suhl marks on the rear left side of the barrel half covered by the stock, and the iron finials of the ramrods threaded for cleaning tools (scourer) or for a worm to remove a ball from the barrel.

Photos copyrighted by the author.

Matchlock · 23rd December 2014, 12:46 PM

Two Dutch carbines, the one on top 1660's, the other ca. 1650-60, the characteristic belly butt stocks reflecting the early Baroque style.
Although both guns were made for horsemen, the peaceful period following the Thirty Years War allowed for some decoration done by carving and/or adding brass studs to the stock, even with military items.
m

Matchlock · 23rd December 2014, 02:47 PM

Two carbines, the first a rare and earlier sample, 1630's-40, and made by Mathes Frosch, the barrel struck with his characteristic frog mark (Frosch is German for frog) and the Nürnberg city proof mark as a sign of top quality.
Frosch was active in Regensburg for years before moving north to Nürnberg.
The butt stock of this carbine is still figured and edged which accounts for the date assigned to this gun.
Note the saddle ring attached two the rear sidenail.

The second piece was also made in Bavaria, in the 1660's; the barrel is signed Georg Kalb. Its but stock is notably bellied. It was most probably for a sniper as the rifled barrel, set trigger and shape of the trigger guard indicate.

Morten · 23rd December 2014, 02:49 PM

Hi Michael thanks for good information and some very good pictures, I spesially like the ones with with the horse.
I knew that the ramrod was not original but it was there when I bought it, and i I thought it looks better with this or without something.
You and all the others that use this forum must have a wonderful Christmas.

Matchlock · 23rd December 2014, 05:31 PM

Hi Morten,

Your carbine definitely looks better with a ramrod than it would without; just replacing the horn tip by a threaded iron finial would add much to its authentic look .

Attached find a documentation of three wheellock carbines with fully evolved paddle shaped buttstocks, 1660's-70, the last one dated 1670 on the barrel.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 23rd December 2014, 06:03 PM

From ca. 1650 to 1700, the last one another sniper's carbine with set trigger, the belly butt stock not present any longer and featuring the earliest ring swivels , Sweden or Denmark, 1680's-1700.

Morten · 23rd December 2014, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Morten,

Your carbine definitely looks better with a ramrod than it would without; just replacing the horn tip by a threaded iron finial would add much to its authentic look .

Attached find a documentation of three wheellock carbines with fully evolved paddle shaped buttstocks, 1660's-70, the last one dated 1670 on the barrel.

Best,
Michael

I mean the ramrod on my pistol, I wont replace the horn tip on the carbine, the way it is today is a part of the history of the weapon and it would'nt be right to change this.

Matchlock · 24th December 2014, 11:32 AM

Hi Morten,

That, of couse, is an alternative sight of collecting: to leave the items just the way they were when they entered your collection.
I have always followed that policy myself but I basically acquire objects in perfect original condition.

Anyway, attached at bottom are photos of a Styrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket dated 1583, and retaining not just its original ramrod with threaded iron finial, still blued, but also the matching worm and scourer; they were stored in a compartment on the right side of the butt stock which, 400 years ago, was not a "patch" box:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tchlock+musket

The only exception to my aforementioned rule of collectiong only complete objects was a Styrian matchlock musket of ca. 1645-50, which is preserved in literally "untouched" condition since those terminal days of the Thirty Years War.
It is wrought quite coarsely, with the iron parts all still in their primeval blued surface which has now turned brownish thanks to a heavy patina. The beechwood full stock was never even stained or varnished and therefore shows its untreated "white" surface now turned to a patinated gray.
The gun is in perfect complete state of preservation and working order but the ramrod is missing.
I just wiped all iron parts with an olive oil soaked cloth to stop and passivate new rust but did not add a replacement ramrod.

With its dark iron contrasting to the grayish white stock and the ramrod gone, it imports the raw cruelty of an ancient war right into our period of time and conveys a perfect testimony of the needs that so many battles raging all over Europe for 30 years must have brought along at its final stage, and for a long time to last even after is was over.

The bottom atts. depict the musket on its arrival from Sotheby's London, 12 Dec 2004, where I had won it bidding on the telephone 10 years ago; the relatively new rust partly covering the original blued or browned iron is clearly evident. Olive oil made it harmless and rendered the surfaces smooth.

Best,
Michael

23rd December 2014, 11:43 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Military wheellock saddle pistols from the 1640's to ca. 1650, the later period of the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). Note the Suhl marks on the rear left side of the barrel half covered by the stock, and the iron finials of the ramrods threaded for cleaning tools (scourer) or for a worm to remove a ball from the barrel. Photos copyrighted by the author. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd December 2014 at 01:22 PM.

23rd December 2014, 12:46 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two Dutch carbines, the one on top 1660's, the other ca. 1650-60, the characteristic belly butt stocks reflecting the early Baroque style. Although both guns were made for horsemen, the peaceful period following the Thirty Years War allowed for some decoration done by carving and/or adding brass studs to the stock, even with military items. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd December 2014 at 08:14 PM.

23rd December 2014, 02:47 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two carbines, the first a rare and earlier sample, 1630's-40, and made by Mathes Frosch, the barrel struck with his characteristic frog mark (Frosch is German for frog) and the Nürnberg city proof mark as a sign of top quality. Frosch was active in Regensburg for years before moving north to Nürnberg. The butt stock of this carbine is still figured and edged which accounts for the date assigned to this gun. Note the saddle ring attached two the rear sidenail. The second piece was also made in Bavaria, in the 1660's; the barrel is signed Georg Kalb. Its but stock is notably bellied. It was most probably for a sniper as the rifled barrel, set trigger and shape of the trigger guard indicate. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd December 2014 at 05:15 PM.

23rd December 2014, 05:31 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Morten, Your carbine definitely looks better with a ramrod than it would without; just replacing the horn tip by a threaded iron finial would add much to its authentic look . Attached find a documentation of three wheellock carbines with fully evolved paddle shaped buttstocks, 1660's-70, the last one dated 1670 on the barrel. Best, Michael Attached Images

23rd December 2014, 06:03 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	From ca. 1650 to 1700, the last one another sniper's carbine with set trigger, the belly butt stock not present any longer and featuring the earliest ring swivels , Sweden or Denmark, 1680's-1700. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 23rd December 2014 at 06:30 PM.

23rd December 2014, 02:49 PM	#4
Morten Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 10	Hi Michael thanks for good information and some very good pictures, I spesially like the ones with with the horse. I knew that the ramrod was not original but it was there when I bought it, and i I thought it looks better with this or without something. You and all the others that use this forum must have a wonderful Christmas.

24th December 2014, 11:32 AM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Morten, That, of couse, is an alternative sight of collecting: to leave the items just the way they were when they entered your collection. I have always followed that policy myself but I basically acquire objects in perfect original condition. Anyway, attached at bottom are photos of a Styrian combined wheellock and matchlock musket dated 1583, and retaining not just its original ramrod with threaded iron finial, still blued, but also the matching worm and scourer; they were stored in a compartment on the right side of the butt stock which, 400 years ago, was not a "patch" box: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...tchlock+musket The only exception to my aforementioned rule of collectiong only complete objects was a Styrian matchlock musket of ca. 1645-50, which is preserved in literally "untouched" condition since those terminal days of the Thirty Years War. It is wrought quite coarsely, with the iron parts all still in their primeval blued surface which has now turned brownish thanks to a heavy patina. The beechwood full stock was never even stained or varnished and therefore shows its untreated "white" surface now turned to a patinated gray. The gun is in perfect complete state of preservation and working order but the ramrod is missing. I just wiped all iron parts with an olive oil soaked cloth to stop and passivate new rust but did not add a replacement ramrod. With its dark iron contrasting to the grayish white stock and the ramrod gone, it imports the raw cruelty of an ancient war right into our period of time and conveys a perfect testimony of the needs that so many battles raging all over Europe for 30 years must have brought along at its final stage, and for a long time to last even after is was over. The bottom atts. depict the musket on its arrival from Sotheby's London, 12 Dec 2004, where I had won it bidding on the telephone 10 years ago; the relatively new rust partly covering the original blued or browned iron is clearly evident. Olive oil made it harmless and rendered the surfaces smooth. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 24th December 2014 at 05:38 PM.