wootz blade welded back together

RSWORD · 3rd December 2006, 02:41 AM

This blade is on an Indian shamshir and shows a high level of workmanship in the fact the blade has been welded back together. No doubt an important blade to someone at one time and the weld job, while the seam is quite evident, practically no loss of pattern which shows a high level of heat control.

S.Al-Anizi · 3rd December 2006, 07:33 AM

Would this still be as practical as it was before the break? Thanks for sharing.

Philip · 3rd December 2006, 08:33 AM

Hi, Rick
Have you run this question by our Wisconsin "Wootz-meister", Ric Furrer?

Otherwise, a little experimentation may be in order. How about you bring the shamshir to our next get-together at Timonium, and I'll scrounge up a large pumkin and some of those bamboos wrapped in straw mats for you to cut. A large gentleman and accomplished golfist like yourself should generate a pretty powerful cutting stroke...

RSWORD · 4th December 2006, 01:54 AM

S. Al,

Probably not practical but obviously done because the blade held a certain level of importance. It has nice mounts and must have been a family heirloom or been important enough to warrant welding it back together with a good amount of precision.

Philip,

Mr. Furrer commented that it looked as though the weld had been done with iron? I am afraid I do not recall exactly though. However, I am up for the pumpkin challenge. I am sure a few quick lessons from a martial artist, good hip rotation like in the golf swing, and I bet it cuts through that stuff no problem!

tom hyle · 4th December 2006, 06:41 PM

As with a similarly welded blade we saw in the past (a Confederate hanger), I wonder why you think this weld is a repair, rather than a part of the original production? Carbon steel has often traded in small portions, and wootz is no exception; I have seen several blades so welded out of two ingots. The weld appears to be scarfed (joined on a slant to increase the surface area of the joint); yes?

Philip · 5th December 2006, 06:29 AM

Here we have a finely-made shamshir blade with a weld joint roughly midway between guard and tip.

If wootz blades were "sometimes" made in segments because of small quantities of material available, we would see more specimens assembled in this same way. I've come across hundreds of wootz swords which I've owned, restored for customers, seen in private collections, and studied in museums, and this is just one of a couple that have these midpoint weld joints.

Also, the blade is otherwise of quite fine quality, and the welded area aside, quite beautiful. Something like this would have been made to order for someone who could afford it, and was not a munition grade weapon issued to common soldiery. Economy would not have been a factor in the manufacture of a shamshir such as this.

Steel smelters in the Near East were perfectly capable of producing ingots sufficient for blades of impressive size -- Persian sabers with massive 35+ inch blades, made of a single ingot, are not uncommon.

Occasionally, one does encounter specimens of Indian talwars of lower quality, with a welded joint at the forte, generally a couple of inches ahead of the hilt. The forte/tang section, and the remainder of the blade, are of different pieces of steel; this can be seen from the texture and color of the two areas. On the contrary, the shamshir seen in this thread appears to be made of the same type of wootz. Also, the weld joint on the talwars is always close to the hilt, and in my experience is not found midway towards the tip as is the case of this shamshir. There is no comparison between the quality level of these talwars and the shamshir which is the subject of this thread.

ALEX · 17th December 2006, 04:37 PM

R and S.Al,
FYI: I had an unfortunate accident where the wootz blade was dropped and broken in half. I have a friend in Damascus, Syria who has a small shop. He is specializing in refitting shamshirs and re-creating silver scabbards, crossguards, hilts, etc. He was able to weld the blade together in a perfect fashion, so one has to look very closely to be able to see the connection line. The blade was wootz, and no pattern distortions were visible after the blade was re-etched. There are also several others in Damascus who can do the same type of work, and who routinely weld broken blades together, however not as well.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th December 2006, 07:12 PM

Hi Rick,

This is very nicely done, although as mentioned earlier, the strength could not have been the same. Thanks for showing

.

3rd December 2006, 02:41 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	wootz blade welded back together This blade is on an Indian shamshir and shows a high level of workmanship in the fact the blade has been welded back together. No doubt an important blade to someone at one time and the weld job, while the seam is quite evident, practically no loss of pattern which shows a high level of heat control. Attached Images

3rd December 2006, 08:33 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	how strong is it? Hi, Rick Have you run this question by our Wisconsin "Wootz-meister", Ric Furrer? Otherwise, a little experimentation may be in order. How about you bring the shamshir to our next get-together at Timonium, and I'll scrounge up a large pumkin and some of those bamboos wrapped in straw mats for you to cut. A large gentleman and accomplished golfist like yourself should generate a pretty powerful cutting stroke...

5th December 2006, 06:29 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	made that way? Here we have a finely-made shamshir blade with a weld joint roughly midway between guard and tip. If wootz blades were "sometimes" made in segments because of small quantities of material available, we would see more specimens assembled in this same way. I've come across hundreds of wootz swords which I've owned, restored for customers, seen in private collections, and studied in museums, and this is just one of a couple that have these midpoint weld joints. Also, the blade is otherwise of quite fine quality, and the welded area aside, quite beautiful. Something like this would have been made to order for someone who could afford it, and was not a munition grade weapon issued to common soldiery. Economy would not have been a factor in the manufacture of a shamshir such as this. Steel smelters in the Near East were perfectly capable of producing ingots sufficient for blades of impressive size -- Persian sabers with massive 35+ inch blades, made of a single ingot, are not uncommon. Occasionally, one does encounter specimens of Indian talwars of lower quality, with a welded joint at the forte, generally a couple of inches ahead of the hilt. The forte/tang section, and the remainder of the blade, are of different pieces of steel; this can be seen from the texture and color of the two areas. On the contrary, the shamshir seen in this thread appears to be made of the same type of wootz. Also, the weld joint on the talwars is always close to the hilt, and in my experience is not found midway towards the tip as is the case of this shamshir. There is no comparison between the quality level of these talwars and the shamshir which is the subject of this thread. Last edited by Philip; 5th December 2006 at 07:25 AM.

17th December 2006, 07:12 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, This is very nicely done, although as mentioned earlier, the strength could not have been the same. Thanks for showing.

3rd December 2006, 07:33 AM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Would this still be as practical as it was before the break? Thanks for sharing.

4th December 2006, 01:54 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	S. Al, Probably not practical but obviously done because the blade held a certain level of importance. It has nice mounts and must have been a family heirloom or been important enough to warrant welding it back together with a good amount of precision. Philip, Mr. Furrer commented that it looked as though the weld had been done with iron? I am afraid I do not recall exactly though. However, I am up for the pumpkin challenge. I am sure a few quick lessons from a martial artist, good hip rotation like in the golf swing, and I bet it cuts through that stuff no problem!

4th December 2006, 06:41 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	As with a similarly welded blade we saw in the past (a Confederate hanger), I wonder why you think this weld is a repair, rather than a part of the original production? Carbon steel has often traded in small portions, and wootz is no exception; I have seen several blades so welded out of two ingots. The weld appears to be scarfed (joined on a slant to increase the surface area of the joint); yes?

17th December 2006, 04:37 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	R and S.Al, FYI: I had an unfortunate accident where the wootz blade was dropped and broken in half. I have a friend in Damascus, Syria who has a small shop. He is specializing in refitting shamshirs and re-creating silver scabbards, crossguards, hilts, etc. He was able to weld the blade together in a perfect fashion, so one has to look very closely to be able to see the connection line. The blade was wootz, and no pattern distortions were visible after the blade was re-etched. There are also several others in Damascus who can do the same type of work, and who routinely weld broken blades together, however not as well.